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Old 12-14-2012, 04:20 PM   #1336
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

You make some good points about Haye, PK. But the problem for Haye in that fight against Wlad, he had a knife in a gun fight, in other words he just didn't have the tools to win against a better, bigger guy. It was just that simple. There's no other way Haye could've fought, IMO he gave himself the best chance to win. You mentioned Benn. He's not Nigel Benn or Joe Frazier, he can't fight that type of fight.

Haye is a ambush, scampering type of fighter. That was never ganna be enough to beat Wlad. He was trying to walk Wlad into something big, but that was always ganna be a long shot. He tried to take Wlad into deep waters, then catch him coming in late. The problem for Haye, was Wlad was not really burning out, because he was stalking at his own pace. For example Ali carried Liston too fast when he was trying to stalk him, so he burned him out. Haye didn’t burn Wlad out, he sort of burned himself out. His game plan was solid though. He just fought the better fighter.

As for the jabs. You're right. Haye didn't jab enough, but thats not what his game is predicated on. He could've jabbed all night, he was never ganna out jab Wlad. The jab would've been more important if he was fighting a pressuring type of fight and pressing the action, but that's not who Haye is and he would've got stopped if he fought a pressing fight.

Wlad was also fighting an exellent fight. He was controlling distance and more important controlling Haye's lead hand. That's one of the reasons Haye couldn't jab effective, but was relying on single power shots. Haye just didn't have a second phase of attack. What i mean by that is he would launch his first offense, but when Wlad leaned back, or took a step backward, Haye didn't have second phase of attack to follow up. Mainly because Wlad would make him hit air and had good footwork. So he wasn't there for a left hook follow up after a right hand attempt, for example. And Haye is one of those guys who needs to hit you with the first phase to get the second phase going. Otherwise he falls off balance because he commits so much.

Wlad was just drowning him with a passive aggressive style, behind his lead hand and reach. It was aggressive because he was constantly pressuring him, cutting the ring. And it was passive because he was still waiting for him to do something. With his attributes he could afford to do that against someone like Haye who wasn't ganne pressure him or force him to fight on the inside and break him down.

Wlad was at the edge of range in a good distance. Haye couldn't reach him, but he could reach Haye. Being taller and longer made this easier.

The keys for Wlad were.

- His lead hand.

- His footwork. He won the fight on footwork and less on punching. He pushed forward slowly, inched backwards quickly, and then went forward again. The footwork also acted as his defense even when his lead wasnt't always covering up or deflecting.

- Control of distance.

All in all it was just asking too much of Haye to win that fight. Short of a extremely well timed hollywood punch, it was never ganna happen.

I think we shouldn't be too harsh on Haye in that fight. He actually fought the best he could in the circumstances, with what he had and what he was facing. He made Wlad look bad at times, Haye's defense was also pretty impressive too. He didn't get caught too clean often.

Last edited by slip&counter; 12-14-2012 at 04:33 PM.
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:19 PM   #1337
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

I know the game plan David Haye was trying to implement, it was to dance around and then occasionally ambush. With David Haye's strengths and weaknesses..? It was a very safe game plan for him, very safe, and the completely obvious one!

Even though David Haye is pretty much the same size as Holyfield & Tyson he does not have their true heavyweight strength or durability, this is why he always users these ambush tactics at heavyweight!

Before the fight....

Barry McGugain, was the only guy stating that..? David Haye should stand his ground, and when i watch this fight over and over again! I totally agree with Barry McGugain.

And i also disagree, i think David Haye could match or out jab Wladimir Kiltschko, or at-least make a impression with it. Too many fighters get intimidated by reach, its not just about reach.

Mike Tyson out jabbed, Tony Tucker for 12 rounds!

If you look back to the David Haye vs Audley Harrison fight..? Audley Harrison was another 6"6 and had a even bigger reach than Wladimir Kiltscko.

David Haye came out and stood his ground, he did not stalk Audley Harrison! But he stood his ground!

If David Haye would of fought the same fight he did against Wladimir Kiltscko, against Audley Harrison..? I doubt, he would of stopped Audley Harrison! and Harrison would of gained confidence and started throwing more jabs, and more shots.

I doubt David Haye will use them ambush tactics again, if he faces Wladimir Kiltschko.

They may work against bigger slower heavyweights.

But not big heavyweights, who are also very athletic! and have immense speed! Like Wladimir Kiltschko.

And if it means A heightened risks of being caught with big shots..? Thats the risk he has to take.

But if David Haye ever faces Vitaili Kilschko, he will adopt these ambush tactics. Because Haye's speed advantage is substantial! against Wladimir Kilschko, his speed advantage is not that substantial!

Plus! With Wladimir Kiltschko's height and reach, this further more nullifies David Haye's speed.

Note: Adam Booth & David Haye both underrated Wladimir Kiltschko speed, and athleticism.
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Old 12-15-2012, 07:48 AM   #1338
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

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Originally Posted by Primadonna Kool View Post
I know the game plan David Haye was trying to implement, it was to dance around and then occasionally ambush. With David Haye's strengths and weaknesses..? It was a very safe game plan for him, very safe, and the completely obvious one!

Even though David Haye is pretty much the same size as Holyfield & Tyson he does not have their true heavyweight strength or durability, this is why he always users these ambush tactics at heavyweight!
Agreed.

Quote:
Barry McGugain, was the only guy stating that..? David Haye should stand his ground, and when i watch this fight over and over again! I totally agree with Barry McGugain.

And i also disagree, i think David Haye could match or out jab Wladimir Kiltschko, or at-least make a impression with it. Too many fighters get intimidated by reach, its not just about reach.
There was no way Haye could 'out jab' Wlad. He could counter his jab, he could try and take away his jab, but not in a million years could he out jab him from distance. Height and reach is what has made Wlad so dominant. It matters! especially when you mix it with good boxing acumen.

I don’t mean to be a killjoy, PK. but we need to be realistic about David Haye's abilities against someone like Wlad. Sorry to say it, but Haye can’t beat Tim Witherspoon or Pinklon Thomas. The guy did the best he could with what he had. He can’t subtly shift inside like Joe Louis or James Toney and take advantage of Wlad’s non infighting ability. He does not have that Holyfield, Marciano, Frazier type of toughness where he walk through hell to get to his man. He's also not a super skilled, slick fighter.

Quote:
Mike Tyson out jabbed, Tony Tucker for 12 rounds!
Haye is not Tyson. Completely different styles and levels.

Quote:
If you look back to the David Haye vs Audley Harrison fight..? Audley Harrison was another 6"6 and had a even bigger reach than Wladimir Kiltscko.

David Haye came out and stood his ground, he did not stalk Audley Harrison! But he stood his ground!

If David Haye would of fought the same fight he did against Wladimir Kiltscko, against Audley Harrison..? I doubt, he would of stopped Audley Harrison! and Harrison would of gained confidence and started throwing more jabs, and more shots.
Haye could do whatever he wanted against Harrison. Not the case with Wlad.

Quote:
I doubt David Haye will use them ambush tactics again, if he faces Wladimir Kiltschko.

They may work against bigger slower heavyweights.

But not big heavyweights, who are also very athletic! and have immense speed! Like Wladimir Kiltschko.

And if it means A heightened risks of being caught with big shots..? Thats the risk he has to take.

But if David Haye ever faces Vitaili Kilschko, he will adopt these ambush .
That's just who Haye is, PK. That's the way he's fought most of his career at this level. I can’t understand why people are so shocked at how Haye fought. That fight was never ganna be an action-packed fight. Haye would have been killed had he fought a pressing fight and people would call him dumb. Haye does not have the skillset or physical toughness to fight that kind of fight. That's just the way it is. You can't expect him to morph into different fighter overnight.

Haye was knocked down 4 times as a pro and knocked OUT 3 times as an amateur. He's a ballsy guy, with good power, but not a relaxed guy, who can shift in the pocket and give a systematic beat down. There was NO other fight he could have fought.

He needed a Evander Holyfield type of toughness to win that fight. Some talk about Wlad’s lack of toughness. Well Wlad does lack toughness but he doesn’t have to take as much because of his huge stature. It’s a tough feeling when punches are bothering you more than the eye can see. Fighters fight the style that is most comfortable to them most of the times. Haye fights that darty, frenetic style because punishment bothers him. It’s nothing wrong with that, it’s just what it is.

In the last 30 years tell me how many guys, who are not THAT durable but can go balls to walls and engage in high contact fights at the elite level. I can only think of 2, Tommy Hearns and Terry Norris. Haye is nowhere near those guys.
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Old 12-15-2012, 08:02 AM   #1339
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

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Originally Posted by slip&counter View Post
Agreed.

There was no way Haye could 'out jab' Wlad. He could counter his jab, he could try and take away his jab, but not in a million years could he out jab him from distance. Height and reach is what has made Wlad so dominant. It matters! especially when you mix it with good boxing acumen.

I donít mean to be a killjoy, PK. but we need to be realistic about David Haye's abilities against someone like Wlad. Sorry to say it, but Haye canít beat Tim Witherspoon or Pinklon Thomas. The guy did the best he could with what he had. He canít subtly shift inside like Joe Louis or James Toney and take advantage of Wladís non infighting ability. He does not have that Holyfield, Marciano, Frazier type of toughness where he walk through hell to get to his man. He's also not a super skilled, slick fighter.

Haye is not Tyson. Completely different styles and levels.

Haye could do whatever he wanted against Harrison. Not the case with Wlad.

That's just who Haye is, PK. That's the way he's fought most of his career at this level. I canít understand why people are so shocked at how Haye fought. That fight was never ganna be an action-packed fight. Haye would have been killed had he fought a pressing fight and people would call him dumb. Haye does not have the skillset or physical toughness to fight that kind of fight. That's just the way it is. You can't expect him to morph into different fighter overnight.

Haye was knocked down 4 times as a pro and knocked OUT 3 times as an amateur. He's a ballsy guy, with good power, but not a relaxed guy, who can shift in the pocket and give a systematic beat down. There was NO other fight he could have fought.

He needed a Evander Holyfield type of toughness to win that fight. Some talk about Wladís lack of toughness. Well Wlad does lack toughness but he doesnít have to take as much because of his huge stature. Itís a tough feeling when punches are bothering you more than the eye can see. Fighters fight the style that is most comfortable to them most of the times. Haye fights that darty, frenetic style because punishment bothers him. Itís nothing wrong with that, itís just what it is.

In the last 30 years tell me how many guys, who are not THAT durable but can go balls to walls and engage in high contact fights at the elite level. I can only think of 2, Tommy Hearns and Terry Norris. Haye is nowhere near those guys.
Slip, I just want to say that this is possibly the best post I've ever read about Haye. It's exactly why he fights that way and why he couldn't beat Wlad.

Brilliant stuff.
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Old 12-15-2012, 08:04 AM   #1340
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

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Does anyone see similarities in the styles of Degale and Bute? I think they're are quite a few.

Obviously both are southpaws are primarily counter punchers. They each throw decent uppercuts which are one of their strongest weapons and although Bute's is a little sharper and more frequent, I think they both neglect the jab. You see more single punches than combinations from the pair of them and they ahve that similar crouched down style of stance, waiting for their opponent to commit. I also think a negative point for both is the ease with which they get backed up onto the ropes because it's a weak area for both.

Obviously, they're not carbon copies of each other but there is a likeness in their styles I feel. Bute is the better body puncher of the two and carries more power without doubt but I'd say James is slightly the better fighter when putting combinations together.
Good observation on your part there, J. Yeah, they are somewhat similar.

Degale strikes me as a one handed fighter on offense. I really think his right hand is so much more less effective then is left. His left is beautiful at times. As an uppercut, straight and even when he uses it as a jab when he switches. His right is the opposite. Every punch he throws with that right hand is a slap. And i think i know why...
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Old 12-15-2012, 08:07 AM   #1341
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

It's a combination of allsorts of things IMO - the main one for me is his foot position when he looks to throw with it.

Just doesn't allow him to use his whole body to deliver the shot correctly.

Good observation in respect of Bute - the more I watch Bute, especially against Froch, the more he reminds me of DeGale.

Obviously better in nearly all departments, but there's certain similarities that you can spot.

Gives a good indication as to how a fight between the two would go, IMO.
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Old 12-15-2012, 08:08 AM   #1342
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

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Slip, I just want to say that this is possibly the best post I've ever read about Haye. It's exactly why he fights that way and why he couldn't beat Wlad.

Brilliant stuff.
Thanks, D.
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:13 PM   #1343
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

Check these photos out, fellas. Posted in the classic.
Very interesting stuff.
It's Stanly Ketchel using a body bag in the early 1900's and Rocky Marciano working the mitts.


[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
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Old 01-02-2013, 04:59 PM   #1344
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

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It's a combination of allsorts of things IMO - the main one for me is his foot position when he looks to throw with it.

Just doesn't allow him to use his whole body to deliver the shot correctly.

.
IMHO Degale's poor punching technique and slapping, especially with his right hand was developed very early on with the pads. I don't think the person who first held the pads for him was holding them right.

I'm all for padwork, but it's a real skill and should be done by someone who knows how to hold them. Far too many trainers don't know how to hold the pads. Everyone uses them but if there's someone who doesn't know how to use them holding it for the fighter then it creates problems, imo. This is one of my biggest concerns with the mitts.

From the way Degale punches i can assume this was the case with him on the mitts when he started. He was taken on there too soon i would imagine. I bet the person holding it for him was bringing the mitts halfway to meet his punches, doing it very quickly and moving on to the next kid.

The whole point is to 'receive' and 'resist' the punch on the mitts, not to meet the fist, per se. By meeting the punches on the mitts, basically, The fighter is learning to hit a target that is halfway between him and the real thing.

It's easy to learn how to hit mitts, but very hard to learn how to hold them. We need good holders in order to develop good hitters. If we don’t have good holding, it will limit how far we can take the hitting.

It's just a hunch, but i think this is where Degale's problem stems from. I would love to know who his first mitt holder was.
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:06 PM   #1345
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

DeGale & Groves both came from the same gym but have remarkably different punching form.

Did they have the same coach?
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:18 PM   #1346
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

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DeGale & Groves both came from the same gym but have remarkably different punching form.

Did they have the same coach?
Good point there, Mo. I would imagine they had the same coach. But did Degale start there from the get-go?

Also i'd imagine 'bad' mitt work would effect guys in different ways, depending on other factors, like style, mentality, natural punching power and what happened after they left. Degale spent a longer time training as an am too.
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:19 PM   #1347
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

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DeGale & Groves both came from the same gym but have remarkably different punching form.

Did they have the same coach?
I think it may be a case of what they have learnt so far in the Pro's, James is still very amateurish in some of the things he does and I can't help but think it is to do with the trainer he is with?

McDonnell was always more credited as a fitness trainer more than a technical coach, now despite what people may or may not think of Booth as a person, his training methods and the mental preparation he installs in his fighters is really good and he uses intelligence in his training.

That is why Groves is looking by far the better of the two, they will always be evenly matched but since 2008 one has progressed more than the other.
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Old 01-02-2013, 06:20 PM   #1348
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Brilliant thread guys 👍
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Old 01-02-2013, 08:00 PM   #1349
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

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I think it may be a case of what they have learnt so far in the Pro's, James is still very amateurish in some of the things he does and I can't help but think it is to do with the trainer he is with?

McDonnell was always more credited as a fitness trainer more than a technical coach, now despite what people may or may not think of Booth as a person, his training methods and the mental preparation he installs in his fighters is really good and he uses intelligence in his training.

That is why Groves is looking by far the better of the two, they will always be evenly matched but since 2008 one has progressed more than the other.

Good point, Bill. McDonnell (better get the spelling right this time ) seems like more of a cheerleader to Degale. I don't wanna knock McDonnell, he was a good fighter and he knows a lot about the sport, i respect him. But i've never really been impressed with him as a trainer. As you say he'll get you in shape, but is perhaps lacking in the teaching department.

Booth on the other hand has control over his fighters. I look at him on the pads and he really knows what he's doing in terms of correcting punching technique and following through the target, non of that pitta-patter stuff.

He's also brillient in the corner. I always say it's easy to tell a guy WHAT to do, but it's HARD to tell him HOW to do it. Booth can tell fighters HOW to do things when he's in the corner and he's super calm, only saying what needs to be said.
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Old 01-02-2013, 08:02 PM   #1350
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Brilliant thread guys ��
Post more, Arnie. It'd be great to get some of your insight.
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