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Old 01-02-2013, 08:51 PM   #16
Webbiano
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Default Re: Bert Sugar's top 10 ATG

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Originally Posted by iceferg View Post
Personally I think you have to judge it by era, the circumstances were just too different. People were naturally smaller 70-100 years ago because they ate less and it is unfair to judge someone against someone else who has had a naturally better diet since day 1, ironically, I think they had more heart just a way of the times,

Anyway, for the really old era I'd have
1. Joe Louis
2. Marciano
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Gene Tuney
5. Archie Moore
6. Jersey Joe Walcott
7. Jack Johnson
8. Ezzard Charles
9. Jess Wilard
10. Bob Fitzsimmons

Semi-modern era
1. Muhamed Ali
2. Larry Holmes (depends what you would class him as)
3. Joe Fraizer
4. George Foreman (same as Holmes)
5. Ken Norton
6. Sonny Liston
7. Floyd Patterson
8. Earnie Shavers
9. Bob Foster (including LHW resume)
10. Jerry Quarry

Modern
1. Lennox Lewis
2. Mike Tyson
3. Evander Holyfield
4. Riddick Bowe
5. Vitali Klitschko
6. Wladimir Klitschko
7. David Tua
8. Michael Moorer
9. Chris Byrd
10. Frank Bruno (although many others could take the place)
Jim Jeffries not in the 1st list is a joke, as is Willard being a top 10. How you have Wladimir above Vitali is beyond me. Archie Moore over Charles and Walcott? Very questionable lists indeed
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Old 01-02-2013, 08:56 PM   #17
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Default Re: Bert Sugar's top 10 ATG

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List is garbage. I don't really do these lists but still.

Dempsey isn't even top 30 let alone top 3.
I feel confident that his correct spot is closer to 3 than 30.

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Gene Tunney wouldn't beat Roy Jones. Indeed, he'd get the Richard Hall treatment.
I like Jones Jr more than most, and who knows, he might upset tunney, but make no mistake, Tunney would be the best win on Roy's pretty good resume. I cant see it myself.

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Foreman is nowhere near top 10. Or top 20. I could keep going.
Foreman outside the top 20? That is a bigger call than where sugar put him.

Quote:

Does Charles really have the wins to be top 10 at heavyweight?
I wouldnt have thought so. But maybe he does sneak in. He looks pretty good on film.

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Frazier, frankly, is too one-dimensional and undersized to be top 10. I think he gets "Foreman-d" by quite a few big punchers who can push him around.
But you would be in the minority.
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Old 01-02-2013, 10:00 PM   #18
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Default Re: Bert Sugar's top 10 ATG

My list may seem a bit sketchy to some but just my opinion. I made the list rather quickly, probably could have made a better one with more time. If you dislike it so much ,ake your own.
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Old 01-02-2013, 10:25 PM   #19
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Default Re: Bert Sugar's top 10 ATG

Criterion: "Those whose transcended the sport, and marked their time."
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:20 PM   #20
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Default Re: Bert Sugar's top 10 ATG

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... and 50 other opponents couldn't take advantage of that
If you noticed, the guys I put above him all had strong left jabs, and the reach to keep him at the end of that jab.
As much as I hate admitting it, Ali would have no chance with Lewis or Wlad. He'd be eating the jab and getting around it, if he could, would do him no good because he never learned to fight inside. Ali is so so supremely overrated; the most one dimensional fighter ever.
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:40 PM   #21
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Default Re: Bert Sugar's top 10 ATG

His looks ok to me except i'd take our Frazier,leave Holmes at 10 and put Wladimir Klitschko at 4 and swap Dempsey and Marciano around.
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:11 AM   #22
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Default Re: Bert Sugar's top 10 ATG

The lists Ive seen from Sugar always listed Dempsey as No 1. Ali was so quick in his prime opponents could not capitalize on his mistakes. Those that are young and stupid mix up prime Ali with post 1970 Ali. Both great fighters but prime Ali was a very hard target to hit and was able to cut opponents to ribbons with his punches. Against Liston in fight one he ripped open his face, broke his nose and eye orbital bone all while finishing the fight completely unmarked.
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:24 AM   #23
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Default Re: Bert Sugar's top 10 ATG

I chuckled at first, but hell, swap Dempsey with Marciano and it's not a bad list at all.
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Old 01-03-2013, 08:23 AM   #24
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Default Re: Bert Sugar's top 10 ATG

It's not even a bad list.

I'd probably have at least six or seven of those names in my top 10.
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:18 PM   #25
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Default Re: Bert Sugar's top 10 ATG

No Tyson, Lewis or Holyfield and you KNOW mans a wrinkly old white guy
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:41 PM   #26
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Default Re: Bert Sugar's top 10 ATG

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Originally Posted by HOUDINI View Post
The lists Ive seen from Sugar always listed Dempsey as No 1. Ali was so quick in his prime opponents could not capitalize on his mistakes. Those that are young and stupid mix up prime Ali with post 1970 Ali. Both great fighters but prime Ali was a very hard target to hit and was able to cut opponents to ribbons with his punches. Against Liston in fight one he ripped open his face, broke his nose and eye orbital bone all while finishing the fight completely unmarked.
This, I was really amazed when I first saw a prime Ali. Never seen anything like it, and that includes a Prime Lewis, Prime Holyfield, Klitschko etc. Only prime Tyson came came close to impressing me as much but he didn't have the longevity.

I honestly feel the Ali who beat Foreman is still a top 10 ATG. The way he deflected punches while remaining in the pocket is like a prime Floyd Mayweather, except he did it while standing square on. I thought he probably won every round quite easily. The only round Foreman had really been winning was maybe in the 4th or 5th (can't remember which) where Ali had literally thrown nothing for the first 2:30 of the round but tbh I really think Ali still won that round because the amount he hurt Foreman in the last 30 and the amount of clean punches he got of (at least 30-40) compared to Foreman who really only got through with 1 or 2 clean shots. That and the first are the only two close ones.
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:55 PM   #27
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Default Re: Bert Sugar's top 10 ATG

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He was trolling.
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:57 PM   #28
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Default Re: Bert Sugar's top 10 ATG

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P
7. David Tua
8. Michael Moorer
9. Chris Byrd
Why on earth is Tua above these two?

Interesting way to break it down though, kinda makes it fun again.
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:00 PM   #29
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Default Re: Bert Sugar's top 10 ATG

Bert's list MUST be heavyweight, in which case it's not bad at all.

Bob Foster has NO place in a heavyweight list.

My guys, mostly head-to-head:

1. Ali
2. Johnson
3. Dempsey
4. Tyson
5. Louis
6. Foreman
7. Frazier
8. Marciano
9. Holmes
10. Lewis
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:05 PM   #30
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Default Re: Bert Sugar's top 10 ATG

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Why on earth is Tua above these two?

Interesting way to break it down though, kinda makes it fun again.
I just think based on his wins etc. KO'd Rahman, Moorer himself, Ruiz, Maskaev. Gave Lewis a decent fight. Lost to Byrd in all fairness but I still think that there is a little more depth on his resume.
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