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Old 01-04-2013, 04:17 PM   #16
popejking
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

It doesnt look fake. However the quality of the video is terrible, so it can make the fake impression that the punch didnt land. Johnson saw the punch coming and tried to lean right to avoid being hit with the 100% power of the punch. Johnson is definitely wobbled after the punch. It would be pretty stupid to agree to risk of taking the powerful punch of Ketchel only to sell the 2nd fight better. I read recently, that Johnson later admitted that the punch thrown by Ketchel was the heaviest punch he (Johnson) was ever hit. He also stated that after the punch he hit Ketchel just few seconds later, he thought he killed Ketchel.

By the way, some time ago, people used to think that the punch known as "phantom punch" Ali hit Liston also was a fake punch. But now, there is on a YT a HD slo-mo of this punch, and it was legit and looks really devastating. If we had such a good video of Ketchel-Johnson, there wouldnt be any conspiracy theories about the punch.
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Old 01-04-2013, 04:23 PM   #17
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

This paper says Johnson was caught behind the ear, and still dazed as Ketchel was counted out. The knock down was legit.

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Old 01-04-2013, 04:25 PM   #18
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

What video of the phantom punch looks devasting? No slow mo replay of the punch I've ever seen has it look any kinda devastating... If anything it solidifies my belief that liston wasn't that badly hurt if at all
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Old 01-04-2013, 04:46 PM   #19
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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Originally Posted by KuRuPT View Post
What video of the phantom punch looks devasting? No slow mo replay of the punch I've ever seen has it look any kinda devastating... If anything it solidifies my belief that liston wasn't that badly hurt if at all
Maybe not devastating, but it looks really solid. Ali was preparing to throw the short right hand, and then he saw Liston was throwing the jab. So Ali put the hands down and leaned backwards to avoid the punch. Then, when Liston missed the punch, and his whole weight was moving in Ali's direction, Ali countered him with a good right hand to the jaw. It wasnt a strong punch, but it was perfect timed and aimed in the Liston's jaw. But I agree that Liston rolling on the back, after taking a knee, was very suspicious. However when he got up, his legs were gone.
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Old 01-04-2013, 04:49 PM   #20
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

If it was real and he got hit and was still wobbled how could he knock Ketchel out so cleanly, the way he gets up looks very suspicious aswell
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Old 01-04-2013, 04:55 PM   #21
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

Dear old Nat Fleischer, in his books Black Dynamite and the Michigan Assassin refers to the KD with some doubt.
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Old 01-04-2013, 04:56 PM   #22
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

I honestly can't understand how anyone genuinely thinks that the knock down was legit. I'm not saying that Johnson wasn't hit by Ketchel, but you can clearly see before the punch lands that Jack is already on is way to the ground.

Also notice how Ketchel doesn't stand over him, while he's down, making it even more sceptical
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Old 01-04-2013, 05:20 PM   #23
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

With it being mw v heavy I think there was an agreement that Johnson wouldn't go all out. A chance for ketchel to show his skills at the highest possible level.

imo ketchel got a bit too big for his boots and caught Johnson with a good shot for a flash kd. Johnson decided enough was enough and ended affairs with one punch.
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:37 PM   #24
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

The film suggests that the KD was legitimate.

Ketchel strikes Johnson’s ear.

This kind of blow will upset a fighters balance, but is not the kind of detail that you would be likely to work into a staged scenario.
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Old 01-04-2013, 06:57 PM   #25
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Johnson hit Ketchel plenty prior to the KO. If there was some sort of agreement between the two, I find it hard to believe that Ketchel would agree to a busted up face to enhance movie ticket sales. No newspaper I read questioned the knockdown. The film might be missing frames.

Johnson went down from a punch, rolled over, had to brace himself to get up, and lost his balance and fell forward when he delivered the finishing blow.

Then after that, he rested on the ropes when Ketchel was counted out. Fighters who are buzzed tend to lose balance and rest on the ropes as Johnson did. Johnson balance on film is rather good, so him falling forward again is a telltale sign he was in fact still buzzed from the punch that Ketchel landed. Johnson's fall looks natural to me, and that is hard to fake.

My take is Johnson was caught, a little hurt, embarrassed, and went for a finish before Ketchel could land another wild blow. The story of the fix came after Ketchel’s death. If this was a fix or pre-arranged match, it becomes a slippery slope for Johnson. What other fights of his were “ fixed “?
Thank you for saving me the time writing this. I agree with you.
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Old 01-04-2013, 07:10 PM   #26
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

In the vid it looks like Johnson started to go down before the punch landed but it's difficult to tell with the vid quality being poor
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Old 01-04-2013, 07:44 PM   #27
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

Some rules for anybody wishing to stage a fight:

1. Keep the scenario simple.
2. Make the fight as short as possible.

If you want to make more money, then you need to call the round, which means a lot more rules like this!
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:36 PM   #28
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

Quote:
Originally Posted by SLAKKA View Post
Houdini u took the words right outta my mouth
That was in the Heller book

I have a tape of that interview. Its great.
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:42 PM   #29
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

Quote:
Originally Posted by Webbiano View Post
I honestly can't understand how anyone genuinely thinks that the knock down was legit.


This.

One of the most suspicious looking knockdowns ever and some are claiming missing film frames? What is this the Zapruder film? There is no disputing Johnson was buckling before he ever got hit.

There is also no disputing that Johnson can be seen clearly carrying Ketchel, literally and figuratively, from very early on in the bout.
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:53 PM   #30
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
No newspaper I read questioned the knockdown.
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Now you have.
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