Harold Johnson - Frightenly Muscular

[fists of fury]

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea

Bruce had unbelievable muscular genetics, all one has to do is look at him to come to that conclusion. The point being made here seems to be flying completely over you guys's heads. We're not saying that with proper training you can't maximise your potential. We're saying you can only go as far as your genetics will allow.

Some people are born with almost perfect bone structure and muscle symmetry, others aren't. Most (in fact the vast majority of) people are born with far less than symmetrical and proportional bone and muscle structure, and thus, even with a similar or even more straining physical routine, would not be able to look the same way as the person with the better natural genetic makeup. As has been said, your genetics and body structure are built in, so even if you're capable of shedding fat, gaining muscle, etc you'll always have the same general structure.

If you take two people, one with a balanced and symmetrical genetic makeup, and the other without, and both people are able to maximise their potential, the one with the better genetics will ultimately look far better. That is the essence of this debate. If you guys can't except that, you're lost and/or very mistaken.

Glad to see we're on exactly the same wavelength.

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by fists of fury

Few trained harder than Marciano though. He could have trained down to the low 170's and looked more ripped I agree, but he would have been weaker and half dead through lack of energy.

2. Yeah, Munzer used diuretics sure, but they all did. Paul Dillett cramped up so badly on stage once, they had to carry him off. That was the result of going crazy with diuretics.
He still never looked nearly as ripped and striated as Munzer, although he was bigger.

3. At that level, I doubt anyone is doing something the others are not.

1. Its not just about training hard though, I have a feeling Marciano enjoyed Pasta and Meatballs and the odd Beer. Plus back then they didn't know that if you eat 5-7 smaller meals you will store less bodyfat, digest your food better, gain more muscle mass

Also did you know endurance training can actually encourage fat secretion to a degree as the body needs fat stores for endurance work.

2. I think Munzer did go further, pushed the envelope. His stirations are simply a result of lower bodyfat, maybe he had better genetics to lose bodyfat but I think its clearly a story of a bodybuilder going too far. Such a low bodyfat may have led to his death, bodyfat is essential for the function of many organs. It certainly looked unhealthy.

3. You'd be suprised, they are all 'doing something', and most take about 30times the amount of testosterone Arnie took in his prime by all accounts (and Arnie was considered to take allot for his time). But when it comes to HGH, Insulin, Stimulants, Diuretics there are some crazy scientists and not so crazy scientists

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by fists of fury

1. I think you're being really hard on Dorian. Why would he be juicing from the start? He hadn't even entered his first competition yet, and wouldn't for some time.
He was growing like a weed anyway, the use of steroids at that stage of his development would have been unnecessary.
At the start of his career, he had strong reservations about going the whole hog. He could not have known at that point how successful he'd become.
We're speculating now though...so let's leave it at that.

2. As for Flex, well being 140-150 certainly doesn't mean he was athletically gifted and had massive potential for muscular growth. Virtually to a man, all pros were pretty good at other sports before the lifting bug bit.
They all had a natural aptitude to be athletic.

1. I've known many people juicing from the first time they goto the gym simply because thats what everyone does and it works. I'm not really picking on Dorian but in allot of hardcore gyms its unusual not to juice. Who knows at the end of the day

2. I'm not saying he had terrible genetics, but it definately contradicts the: 'a 140lb weakling can never pack on muscle suggestion'

[fists of fury]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

2. I'm not saying he had terrible genetics, but it definately contradicts the: 'a 140lb weakling can never pack on muscle suggestion'

I wouldn't consider someone a weakling just because he weighed 140 pounds. There are some damn strong, athletic 140 pounders out there.

We both know that Flex Wheeler had amazing genetics though. That much is obvious. He was also probably a ecto/mesomorph mix, although he didn't actually look like one.

When I stated that the myth of the proverbial 98 pound weakling growing huge, big muscles is just that, I meant the genetically average ectomorph who is not on steroids or other stuff, and has no natural aptitude for athleticism. I'll stand by that statement.

For instance, my younger brother is a case in point. He's skinny bordering on scrawny, and he's completely average in the athletic department. He drinks beer like there's no tomorrow, eats like a horse and is a complete coach potato, yet he puts on not an ounce of fat. He's also reaching his 30's soon, so his metobolism isn't exactly a furnace either.

For him to go to the gym and expect to look like Flex Wheeler one day is...well, it's just not going to happen, no matter what he does.
It'd be a trial (and then some) for him to get to just a muscular 160 pounds, although it's well possible.

[fists of fury]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

3. You'd be suprised, they are all 'doing something', and most take about 30times the amount of testosterone Arnie took in his prime by all accounts (and Arnie was considered to take allot for his time). But when it comes to HGH, Insulin, Stimulants, Diuretics there are some crazy scientists and not so crazy scientists

Fair enough, I agree with that. Some guys will do the most insane things to win, although they rarely last long in the sport. Guys like Greg Kovacs and Paul Demayo (Or so I've read) were apparantly doing some sick things to themselves, drugs-wise.
Then there is Lou Ferrigno and his suspect calves.

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by fists of fury

Fair enough, I agree with that. Some guys will do the most insane things to win, although they rarely last long in the sport. Guys like Greg Kovacs and Paul Demayo (Or so I've read) were apparantly doing some sick things to themselves, drugs-wise.
Then there is Lou Ferrigno and his suspect calves.

Remember when Muscletech/Musclemag kept claiming Kovacs was going to win the olympia, think he placed second last in some comp

Arnie was accused of calf implants. A load of guys sythol instead now (which isnt a real roid but its toxic stuff), just fills the muscle with oil. Flex Wheeler did his share of sythol, then again loads have, it takes away muscle definition though but its ok for biceps/. I think Dorian skipped on the synthol for some reason, he could of done with some in his BIs imo. Ernie Taylor went sythol CRAZY

Supposedly 1 of Dorian's training partners used to reckon Dorian took a vile of his blood out, mix it 50-50 with HGH and re-inject it. There were allot of crazy Dorian rumours. You dont really know what these guys are doing, wouldnt like to be them at 50

[Russell]

Originally Posted by fists of fury

Garfield and Pea - thanks for the compliments.

Oh and Russell - sorry about hijacking this thread. Never intended it to be that way.

Not a problem.

[JonesHagler]

he was FOR SURE on steroids, ACTUAL WEIGHTLIFTERS BODIES HARDLY WEREN'T EVEN AS GOOD AS HIS IN THE 40'S....

[spittle8]

Originally Posted by JonesHagler

he was FOR SURE on steroids, ACTUAL WEIGHTLIFTERS BODIES HARDLY WEREN'T EVEN AS GOOD AS HIS IN THE 40'S....

What are you on? About 50 years BEFORE Johnson bodybuilders like Eugen Sandow had massive, ripped, absurdly swol' bodies twice the size of Harold Johnson.

You can get that build without steroids, FFS.

[LittleRed]

I'm thin blacking this because I remember Johnson claiming he never lifted weights.

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[El Bujia]

Goddamn, I used to be smart as fuck. I guess drugs and alcohol really do take a toll on your mind.

[LittleRed]

Originally Posted by El Bujia

Goddamn, I used to be smart as fuck. I guess drugs and alcohol really do take a toll on your mind.

I didn't want to say anything man but its real noticeable.

[PetethePrince]

Originally Posted by LittleRed

I'm thin blacking this because I remember Johnson claiming he never lifted weights.

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Doesn't surprise me. I figured he didn't. Genetics can certainly make you look like a freak without touching a weight. Look at Bo Jackson. Guy never touched a weight and he was even a bigger freak than Johnson.

Originally Posted by El Bujia

Goddamn, I used to be smart as fuck. I guess drugs and alcohol really do take a toll on your mind.

I was a little bit of a dick in this thread. I was fairly new. I don't think your position is correct.

The truth is you can get very close to Harold Johnson without juice. You can't change your structure, of course. But even Phil Heath has narrowly framed shoulders/clavicles. Who is going to assert he isn't the best bodybuilder despite this structural/genetic weakness? Yes, Heath takes load of HGH/PEDS. We're talking about a LHW, though.

[El Bujia]

Originally Posted by LittleRed

I didn't want to say anything man but its real noticeable.

Which one are you?

[Seamus]

So, he looks like a cartoon character.

When boxing has a pose-off section, we can count that, too.