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Old 01-04-2013, 10:37 PM   #31
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

Gunboat Smiths eye witness testimony and the fact he was in Johnsons camp is the relevant info. Smith stated the KD was faked and that JJ could have ended the fight at any time. I forget the reasoning why Johnson faked the KD except he wanted a reason to KO Ketchel. For those who have the book with Smiths interview what exactly did he say?
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:46 PM   #32
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

The newspapers stated that the only person who thought the knockdown was legitimate was Jack Welch the referee. Everyone else thought Johnson faked it for the pictures which I agree with. Its silly to say "so and so who was there said... " when we have film that we can replay and watch over and over.
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Old 01-05-2013, 02:24 AM   #33
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
With it being mw v heavy I think there was an agreement that Johnson wouldn't go all out. A chance for ketchel to show his skills at the highest possible level.

imo ketchel got a bit too big for his boots and caught Johnson with a good shot for a flash kd. Johnson decided enough was enough and ended affairs with one punch.
The fight is supposed to have been rehearsed ,and choreographed in Barney Curleys hotel suite, with Ketchel saying he couldn't pull his punches and Johnson stating ,"you just do what you can" or words to that effect.
Whatever the truth is, Johnson sparked him with his next punch ,and anyone who isnt a total Johnson hater. can see that he is carrying the smaller man picking him up on two occasions and setting him back on his feet.
Mendoza's response is as predictable as it is pathetic.
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Old 01-05-2013, 02:26 AM   #34
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
This paper says Johnson was caught behind the ear, and still dazed as Ketchel was counted out. The knock down was legit.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


"This paper says"

WHAT DOES THE FILM SAY?
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Old 01-05-2013, 02:50 AM   #35
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
"This paper says"

WHAT DOES THE FILM SAY?
For what it's worth, the film ain't none to good.

Another Gunboat assertion always got my attention, tho none around here would remark about it when I brought it up. Old Gunboat contended that Jeffries considered his match with Johnson to be a fix in his favor from the outset, even after it was moved from SF to Reno. It was only two days before the match that Johnson informed Jim that outside of California, where they wouldn't have a Negro winning the title, the fight would be on the up and up... Jeffries summarily turned a white shade of pale.

Was Gunboat just full of shit or were these tales true?
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:28 AM   #36
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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Originally Posted by janitor View Post
The film suggests that the KD was legitimate.

Ketchel strikes Johnson’s ear.

This kind of blow will upset a fighters balance, but is not the kind of detail that you would be likely to work into a staged scenario.
Why did Johnsons left leg fold in before the punch was landed though, and why when he initially saw the punch coming he instinctively backed away abit and then seemed to realise and stop and fold his left leg in and fall, the way he fell too he puts his left arm around Ketchels back and when he lands on the canvas his left hand perfectly lands on the canvas balancing him, and then once his hand perfectly lands on the canvas to balance him a second later his legs can barely push him up and he seems very dazed and then lands a hard punch and knocks him out, seems abit too far fetched to me
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:15 AM   #37
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

Johnson was known as the greatest defensive fighter in the hwt division. In all my years studying Johnson I've never seen him react to any punch like he does to that very long right hand from Ketchel. He does indeed start to fall before the punch is any where near him. In my eyes the punch if it hit him at all brushed the back of his head. It does also seem weird that the punch was thrown in full view of the camera.....Ketchel directly to the left and Johnson directly to the right. I always thought the KD was faked watching this bout back in the 70s on 8 mm film to this very day watching on YouTube. Smiths comments adds further proof in my eyes because what he says is what I see when I watch the film and he was there at ringside. Why it happened and all the circumstances surrounding it will probably always be a mystery.
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:29 AM   #38
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

Werent him and ketchel friends? and they tried to make it go the distance because their was more money in it that way and Ketchel being Ketchel,tried to sneak a KO in?
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:41 AM   #39
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

Old story, It is not fake, but Jack johnson started that shit when it happened. Ketchel nailed him, plain and simple. According to Johnson, EVERY time he got knocked out, or knocked down, it was part of some scheme.

Johnson said he was carrying Ketchel, but then why was Ketchel hurt earlier, cut, and have bruises, as did Johnson, who had some swelling on face?
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:31 AM   #40
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
For what it's worth, the film ain't none to good.

Another Gunboat assertion always got my attention, tho none around here would remark about it when I brought it up. Old Gunboat contended that Jeffries considered his match with Johnson to be a fix in his favor from the outset, even after it was moved from SF to Reno. It was only two days before the match that Johnson informed Jim that outside of California, where they wouldn't have a Negro winning the title, the fight would be on the up and up... Jeffries summarily turned a white shade of pale.

Was Gunboat just full of shit or were these tales true?
The film is not great, but Johnson fell from a punch, rolled over, had to brace himself to get up, lost his balance once he was up, then grabbed the ropes after Ketchel was down.


No paper says it was a phantom punch. McVey doesn't like newspapers that ruin his agenda. Nothing new here.
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:42 AM   #41
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

The knockdown looks fake to me.
I've been saying this for years.
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:44 AM   #42
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

I've watched that KD a thousand times....no way it's legit.
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:48 AM   #43
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
For what it's worth, the film ain't none to good.

Another Gunboat assertion always got my attention, tho none around here would remark about it when I brought it up. Old Gunboat contended that Jeffries considered his match with Johnson to be a fix in his favor from the outset, even after it was moved from SF to Reno. It was only two days before the match that Johnson informed Jim that outside of California, where they wouldn't have a Negro winning the title, the fight would be on the up and up... Jeffries summarily turned a white shade of pale.

Was Gunboat just full of shit or were these tales true?
The film of Johnson-Ketchel fits with what Smith said about it.

As for Johnson-Jeffries, I'm no expert on that fight. It's entirely possible, but I haven't researched it. On such matters (fixed fights, 'double crosses', backroom agreements etc.) we can probably never be certain of what is true or not.
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Old 01-05-2013, 08:58 AM   #44
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

You don't lose 100 pounds and get into the condition Jeffries got into if the fight was to be faked.
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:12 AM   #45
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Default Re: Johnson Ketchel knockdown set up fake

My assertion throughout boxing history is if a fight is to be faked, I want proof of it.

The kd Ketchel scored doesn't look the worst but I''ve seen kd punches with less power land less cleanly then that (a valero one comes to mind, looks like he barely clippe dthe guy and he nigh sparked him out).

Like someone said, the phantom punch was rumoured to be fake for years but once that HD version was put up you can see quite clearly it lands solidly as Liston leans in.

I imagine the same would be here and that's why Johnson was so quick to knock him out, embarassment or anger I dunno but he was taking it easy and the mw saw his chance.

I'm not overly keen on these debates because it usually comes down to opinion v opinion, so like I say, if ya can prove it's fake then go for it, otherwise we have to maintain it's legit.
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