Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher? - Page 2

DavidChao · 01-07-2013, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnmaff36

Rating Ali as an ATG and a P4P top fighter doesnt necessarily mean a person is a casual or semi-casual fan, nor should it be deserving of your complete dismissal of their boxing knowledge for thinking so. It seems to be the hipster thing to say on these forums this while back and i cant see why i, and many others, should be made to feel guilty for thinking highly of him. Im not saying hes top 5 or even top 10, but he sure as fuk is knocking on the door. I dont want to go on but i could, and be completely reasonable in my argument, but this is a benny leonard thread and maybe its for another place.

I dont really do lists but ive always thought of Leonard and Duran as being interchangable depending on my mood, as 1 and 2 at lightweight, and just inside the top 10 p4p

For sure. Ali is great. I just find it offputting to say so and so is this and that or this great when little research with to make the comparison is done in advance. I am also open about being critical of Ali, especially regarding the Norton bouts.

johnmaff36 · 01-07-2013, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidChao

For sure. Ali is great. I just find it offputting to say so and so is this and that or this great when little research with to make the comparison is done in advance. I am also open about being critical of Ali, especially regarding the Norton bouts.

ive no quarrel with that. Everyone should be open to critcism.

I do have a problem tho with every win he ever had bein classed as a fix/lucky/bought judges/shot opponent/dive like which has been gettin claimed on here

There are few fighters on here who seem to be plucked outta the thin air for ones to vent their spleen over for no apparent reason other than a clear dislike, than Ali here. I mean, theres a few fighters i wouldnt have a great deal of time for but i choose just to not mention them unless the thread is actually about them. Not singling you or anyone else out, just an observation.

PhillyPhan69 · 01-07-2013, 09:41 AM

I rate him #1 ATG @ Lightweight....Although I believe anywhere from 1-3 is justifiable, and would not provoke an argument from me (As long as it is Gans, Duran and Benny that are discussed as the big 3)...His P4P ranking is probably proportianate to that so, anywhere from 5-15 is adequate if you are rating him 1-3...

Personally I can't rate him higher than 7.

01 SRR
02 Greb
03 Armstrong
04 Langford
05 Charles
06 Fitzsimmons
07 Benny
08 Moore
09 Pep
10 Louis
11 Ali
12 Gans
13 Duran
14 Ross
15 Walker

greynotsoold · 01-07-2013, 10:11 AM

P4P, Leonard kicks Ali's ass.
Personally, I have him up there with Charles and Ribinson. I've never bothered to sit down and make a list, but if I did it would be those three at top, then Greb. Mine is based on technical skill and mental energy, my criterion.

dyna · 01-07-2013, 10:22 AM

I have trouble rating ATG HWs with ATGs, the hw division has always been narrow.

You sure as hell don't see a Cleveland Williams who was crippled and had intestines removed getting a title shot in non hw divisions.

It just seems unfair that lighter boxers have to be p4p much better and work much harder than a heavyweight to get the same rating.

orriray59 · 01-07-2013, 11:32 AM

Ali is top 15 at the worst. Any lower than that is weird to me.

He makes my top 10.

NWS · 01-07-2013, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greynotsoold

P4P, Leonard kicks Ali's ass.
Personally, I have him up there with Charles and Ribinson. I've never bothered to sit down and make a list, but if I did it would be those three at top, then Greb. Mine is based on technical skill and mental energy, my criterion.

Robinson's natural power, speed and chin were all probably just as, if not more instrumental to his success as any of his technical skills, however defined. I'd say Ray Leonard (random example) actually had better form, threw the straighter punches and had tighter defense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dyna

I have trouble rating ATG HWs with ATGs, the hw division has always been narrow.

You sure as hell don't see a Cleveland Williams who was crippled and had intestines removed getting a title shot in non hw divisions.

Right, you see Alvaro Rojas and Leoncio Ortiz.

Quote:

Originally Posted by orriray59

Ali is top 15 at the worst. Any lower than that is weird to me.

He makes my top 10.

What's crazy to me is that Ali actually beat more top ten contenders (at the time he fought them) than Henry Armstrong did. Of course, you've got to account for quality as well but it isn't as if Ali was participating in a shit era. He's got the best resume amongst the heavyweights by a fair distance.

LittleRed · 01-07-2013, 11:48 AM

Ali is clearly p4p greater than Leonard. Leonard=135, Ali=210. That's well over 50% more pounds so Leonard would have to be as good as Ali and a half to be equal.

orriray59 · 01-07-2013, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NWS

Robinson's natural power, speed and chin were all probably just as, if not more instrumental to his success as any of his technical skills, however defined. I'd say Ray Leonard (random example) actually had better form, threw the straighter punches and had tighter defense.

Right, you see Alvaro Rojas and Leoncio Ortiz.

What's crazy to me is that Ali actually beat more top ten contenders (at the time he fought them) than Henry Armstrong did. Of course, you've got to account for quality as well but it isn't as if Ali was participating in a shit era. He's got the best resume amongst the heavyweights by a fair distance.

Yup, Ali probably fought in the best heavyweight era of all time if we're talking quality.

orriray59 · 01-07-2013, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LittleRed

Ali is clearly p4p greater than Leonard. Leonard=135, Ali=210. That's well over 50% more pounds so Leonard would have to be as good as Ali and a half to be equal.

We're talking Benn-ee Lennard you fucker!

Not Suger Rai Lennard! Jesus, man.

Unforgiven · 01-07-2013, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LittleRed

Ali is clearly p4p greater than Leonard. Leonard=135, Ali=210. That's well over 50% more pounds so Leonard would have to be as good as Ali and a half to be equal.

You've got it backwards.

PhillyPhan69 · 01-07-2013, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

You've got it backwards.

BUT....Since Little Red is already backwards, doesn't that imply that he just might have this one right???

orriray59 · 01-07-2013, 12:07 PM

Suger Rei Lennard was a better litewate than welter tbh.

PhillyPhan69 · 01-07-2013, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orriray59

Suger Rei Lennard was a better litewate than welter tbh.

Wow....When did this happen and what led you to this conclusion???

KuRuPT · 01-07-2013, 12:37 PM

Based on Resume.. I might give it ever so slightly to Benny over Duran. Problem is, he also lost more than a prime Lightweight Duran did.. couple that with me thinking Duran beats Benny head to head... then you have why I rate Duran over Benny... but not by much.

01-07-2013, 09:41 AM	#18
PhillyPhan69 Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Salisbury, MD Posts: 3,710 vCash: 1000	Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher? I rate him #1 ATG @ Lightweight....Although I believe anywhere from 1-3 is justifiable, and would not provoke an argument from me (As long as it is Gans, Duran and Benny that are discussed as the big 3)...His P4P ranking is probably proportianate to that so, anywhere from 5-15 is adequate if you are rating him 1-3... Personally I can't rate him higher than 7. 01 SRR 02 Greb 03 Armstrong 04 Langford 05 Charles 06 Fitzsimmons 07 Benny 08 Moore 09 Pep 10 Louis 11 Ali 12 Gans 13 Duran 14 Ross 15 Walker
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01-07-2013, 10:11 AM	#19
greynotsoold Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 723 vCash: 500	Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher? P4P, Leonard kicks Ali's ass. Personally, I have him up there with Charles and Ribinson. I've never bothered to sit down and make a list, but if I did it would be those three at top, then Greb. Mine is based on technical skill and mental energy, my criterion.
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01-07-2013, 10:22 AM	#20
dyna Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 4,533 vCash: 1551	Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher? I have trouble rating ATG HWs with ATGs, the hw division has always been narrow. You sure as hell don't see a Cleveland Williams who was crippled and had intestines removed getting a title shot in non hw divisions. It just seems unfair that lighter boxers have to be p4p much better and work much harder than a heavyweight to get the same rating.
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01-07-2013, 11:32 AM	#21
orriray59 weird East Side VIP Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: The Green Isle Posts: 13,226 vCash: 82	Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher? Ali is top 15 at the worst. Any lower than that is weird to me. He makes my top 10.
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01-07-2013, 11:48 AM	#23
LittleRed Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Yoknapatawpha Posts: 2,610 vCash: 475	Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher? Ali is clearly p4p greater than Leonard. Leonard=135, Ali=210. That's well over 50% more pounds so Leonard would have to be as good as Ali and a half to be equal.
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01-07-2013, 12:07 PM	#28
orriray59 weird East Side VIP Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: The Green Isle Posts: 13,226 vCash: 82	Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher? Suger Rei Lennard was a better litewate than welter tbh.
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01-07-2013, 12:37 PM	#30
KuRuPT Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,588 vCash: 500	Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher? Based on Resume.. I might give it ever so slightly to Benny over Duran. Problem is, he also lost more than a prime Lightweight Duran did.. couple that with me thinking Duran beats Benny head to head... then you have why I rate Duran over Benny... but not by much.
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