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Old 01-07-2013, 06:34 AM   #16
DavidChao
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

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Originally Posted by johnmaff36 View Post
Rating Ali as an ATG and a P4P top fighter doesnt necessarily mean a person is a casual or semi-casual fan, nor should it be deserving of your complete dismissal of their boxing knowledge for thinking so. It seems to be the hipster thing to say on these forums this while back and i cant see why i, and many others, should be made to feel guilty for thinking highly of him. Im not saying hes top 5 or even top 10, but he sure as fuk is knocking on the door. I dont want to go on but i could, and be completely reasonable in my argument, but this is a benny leonard thread and maybe its for another place.

I dont really do lists but ive always thought of Leonard and Duran as being interchangable depending on my mood, as 1 and 2 at lightweight, and just inside the top 10 p4p
For sure. Ali is great. I just find it offputting to say so and so is this and that or this great when little research with to make the comparison is done in advance. I am also open about being critical of Ali, especially regarding the Norton bouts.
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Old 01-07-2013, 06:50 AM   #17
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

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For sure. Ali is great. I just find it offputting to say so and so is this and that or this great when little research with to make the comparison is done in advance. I am also open about being critical of Ali, especially regarding the Norton bouts.
ive no quarrel with that. Everyone should be open to critcism.

I do have a problem tho with every win he ever had bein classed as a fix/lucky/bought judges/shot opponent/dive like which has been gettin claimed on here

There are few fighters on here who seem to be plucked outta the thin air for ones to vent their spleen over for no apparent reason other than a clear dislike, than Ali here. I mean, theres a few fighters i wouldnt have a great deal of time for but i choose just to not mention them unless the thread is actually about them. Not singling you or anyone else out, just an observation.
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:41 AM   #18
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

I rate him #1 ATG @ Lightweight....Although I believe anywhere from 1-3 is justifiable, and would not provoke an argument from me (As long as it is Gans, Duran and Benny that are discussed as the big 3)...His P4P ranking is probably proportianate to that so, anywhere from 5-15 is adequate if you are rating him 1-3...

Personally I can't rate him higher than 7.

01 SRR
02 Greb
03 Armstrong
04 Langford
05 Charles
06 Fitzsimmons
07 Benny
08 Moore
09 Pep
10 Louis
11 Ali
12 Gans
13 Duran
14 Ross
15 Walker
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Old 01-07-2013, 10:11 AM   #19
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

P4P, Leonard kicks Ali's ass.
Personally, I have him up there with Charles and Ribinson. I've never bothered to sit down and make a list, but if I did it would be those three at top, then Greb. Mine is based on technical skill and mental energy, my criterion.
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Old 01-07-2013, 10:22 AM   #20
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

I have trouble rating ATG HWs with ATGs, the hw division has always been narrow.

You sure as hell don't see a Cleveland Williams who was crippled and had intestines removed getting a title shot in non hw divisions.

It just seems unfair that lighter boxers have to be p4p much better and work much harder than a heavyweight to get the same rating.
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Old 01-07-2013, 11:45 AM   #21
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
P4P, Leonard kicks Ali's ass.
Personally, I have him up there with Charles and Ribinson. I've never bothered to sit down and make a list, but if I did it would be those three at top, then Greb. Mine is based on technical skill and mental energy, my criterion.
Robinson's natural power, speed and chin were all probably just as, if not more instrumental to his success as any of his technical skills, however defined. I'd say Ray Leonard (random example) actually had better form, threw the straighter punches and had tighter defense.

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I have trouble rating ATG HWs with ATGs, the hw division has always been narrow.

You sure as hell don't see a Cleveland Williams who was crippled and had intestines removed getting a title shot in non hw divisions.
Right, you see Alvaro Rojas and Leoncio Ortiz.

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Ali is top 15 at the worst. Any lower than that is weird to me.

He makes my top 10.
What's crazy to me is that Ali actually beat more top ten contenders (at the time he fought them) than Henry Armstrong did. Of course, you've got to account for quality as well but it isn't as if Ali was participating in a shit era. He's got the best resume amongst the heavyweights by a fair distance.
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Old 01-07-2013, 11:48 AM   #22
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

Ali is clearly p4p greater than Leonard. Leonard=135, Ali=210. That's well over 50% more pounds so Leonard would have to be as good as Ali and a half to be equal.
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Old 01-07-2013, 11:59 AM   #23
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

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Ali is clearly p4p greater than Leonard. Leonard=135, Ali=210. That's well over 50% more pounds so Leonard would have to be as good as Ali and a half to be equal.
You've got it backwards.
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Old 01-07-2013, 12:02 PM   #24
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

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You've got it backwards.
BUT....Since Little Red is already backwards, doesn't that imply that he just might have this one right???
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Old 01-07-2013, 12:18 PM   #25
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

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Originally Posted by orriray59 View Post
Suger Rei Lennard was a better litewate than welter tbh.
Wow....When did this happen and what led you to this conclusion???
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Old 01-07-2013, 12:37 PM   #26
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

Based on Resume.. I might give it ever so slightly to Benny over Duran. Problem is, he also lost more than a prime Lightweight Duran did.. couple that with me thinking Duran beats Benny head to head... then you have why I rate Duran over Benny... but not by much.
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Old 01-07-2013, 12:37 PM   #27
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

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Originally Posted by dyna View Post
I have trouble rating ATG HWs with ATGs, the hw division has always been narrow.

You sure as hell don't see a Cleveland Williams who was crippled and had intestines removed getting a title shot in non hw divisions.

It just seems unfair that lighter boxers have to be p4p much better and work much harder than a heavyweight to get the same rating.

Craig Bodzianowski ?

It aint exclusive to the heavies but i do get your sentiment
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Old 01-07-2013, 12:41 PM   #28
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

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bcz he beat duran who was the GOAT at litewate!!1
I forgot that they fought @ LW
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Old 01-07-2013, 12:42 PM   #29
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

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Originally Posted by orriray59 View Post
We're talking Benn-ee Lennard you ****er!

Not Suger Rai Lennard! Jesus, man.
Who?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
You've got it backwards.
You're just being anti heavyweight. I know your kind. Sizist!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyPhan69 View Post
BUT....Since Little Red is already backwards, doesn't that imply that he just might have this one right???
Thanks. I think? I was raised on Bizzarro world. Over there Philadelphia was a sports town.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orriray59 View Post
Suger Rei Lennard was a better litewate than welter tbh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyPhan69 View Post
Wow....When did this happen and what led you to this conclusion???
He's possessed by the ghost of frankenfrank! Quick someone get a priest! Or a hooker. I forgot how this works...
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Old 01-07-2013, 12:47 PM   #30
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

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Originally Posted by PhillyPhan69 View Post
BUT....Since Little Red is already backwards, doesn't that imply that he just might have this one right???
Little Red is easily one of the best posters on the forum. He's just a gay (as in happy, like) sarcasm whore. Behind all of his deceitful quips is the tree of boxing knowledge.
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