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Old 01-07-2013, 01:45 PM   #46
Seamus
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

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Originally Posted by Manassa View Post
1. Harry Greb
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Ray Robinson
4. Sam Langford
5. Benny Leonard
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Bob Fitzsimmons
8. Willie Pep
9. Roberto Duran
10. Archie Moore

This is what I seem to have settled on for now, having given Fitzsimmons' fans the benefit of the doubt and moved him up.

11. Joe Gans
12. Packey McFarland
13. Barney Ross
14. Mickey Walker
15. Muhammad Ali
That's a very good list. Thought provoking, also.

In regards to Leonard, I have put him in my top-10 P4P but whenever I examine his CV, I keep thinking he might be higher. Great topic.
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Old 01-07-2013, 01:50 PM   #47
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

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That's a very good list. Thought provoking, also.

In regards to Leonard, I have put him in my top-10 P4P but whenever I examine his CV, I keep thinking he might be higher. Great topic.
Well call me Norah, I saw your name and got ready for a debate*. Thank you.

*Which, by the way, would have been (and is usually) extremely difficult since my keyboard is absolutely ****ed and slows down my typing. That opening post made me lose hair.
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Old 01-07-2013, 02:21 PM   #48
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

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I need to pick up more about Packey McFarland also. I mean, look at his fight against Freddie Welsh. It's beautiful boxing, and you hear posters on this very board calling fighters from those days primitive or shit.
i love that video, welsh's style is fairly unique and mcfarland is more 'modern' than some of todays fighters.

it is a thing with people today that a fast skillfull fighter has to be defensive, and therefore, perversely, leonard, or even robinson don't get the credit they deserve.
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Old 01-07-2013, 02:33 PM   #49
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

Don't worry Philly I wasn't offended. Did I mention that Robin Roberts is one of the most underrated pitchers of all time? Also to the guy who is clearly not Hands of Iron; thank you. I may be in need of a signature update.

Anyway, its clear that if you rate Duran over Leonard and Gans at lightweight you are saying 'I think Duran was a better fighter' because those two have more quality scalps at the weight. Not that Duran has a terrible resume, as if you include everything from his pro debut to Dejesus 3 he beat several quality guys. Its just not enough. But I'll say this: if you have Duran number one then you can't keep Pernell Whitaker out of the top 4 because he did 80% of what Duran did at the weight and looked pretty unbeatable (albeit a little less dominant than some remember).
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Old 01-07-2013, 02:50 PM   #50
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

Got Benny Leonard number 2 LW and think he is number 7 on my p4p list.
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:09 PM   #51
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

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Well call me Norah, I saw your name and got ready for a debate*. Thank you.

*Which, by the way, would have been (and is usually) extremely difficult since my keyboard is absolutely ****ed and slows down my typing. That opening post made me lose hair.
I am not sure what we disagree on, but if that's your list, we agree on a whole lot.

Packy McFarland is someone I need to do my homework on.
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:23 PM   #52
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

Leonard was one of the greats for sure. It should be noted that he cleaned out his era, and never drew the color line.
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:09 PM   #53
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

Greatest LW EVER. I have in my Top 6 all time.
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Old 01-08-2013, 12:11 AM   #54
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

Hard to overate Benny Leonard. I wouldnt give someone shit that had him #1. Its all subjective. Some people put stock in different aspects of a fighters career.

We know Leonard is among the very elite that has ever laced them up. He dominated the lightweights and couldve won the Welterweight title had he chose not to hit Britton when he was on the canvas.. Thats a whole nother story.

The man retired on top of the sport.

When you look at his ability what was he lacking? He could box, punch, take a punch. Benny had superior footwork, educated movement and according to Ray Arcel he could fient you into knots. He could KO his opponent with either hand.

I basically described Ray Robinson but all those same attributes apply with Mr. Leonard.
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Old 01-08-2013, 04:00 AM   #55
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

I think tops in lightweight although i change my mind every now and again, i dont know in all time definatley within the top 15 i think though
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Old 01-08-2013, 09:26 PM   #56
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

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ive no quarrel with that. Everyone should be open to critcism.

I do have a problem tho with every win he ever had bein classed as a fix/lucky/bought judges/shot opponent/dive like which has been gettin claimed on here

There are few fighters on here who seem to be plucked outta the thin air for ones to vent their spleen over for no apparent reason other than a clear dislike, than Ali here. I mean, theres a few fighters i wouldnt have a great deal of time for but i choose just to not mention them unless the thread is actually about them. Not singling you or anyone else out, just an observation.
No problem, I may have set myself up a bit since I rarely post.

True on what Ai. I was just pretty annoyed recently when thinking about how Tyson fan and Tyson's legacy are often taken lightly, when I see similar criticisms in a lot of professed Ali fans. Got dragged into an unsavory YouTube argument the other day...

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Old 01-09-2013, 06:50 AM   #57
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

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Solid list, Manassa. I took particular notice, off topic if you'll beg my pardon, of Ali at 15. Perhaps I have not spent enough time in classic yet, but it frustrates me that many fans, perhaps casuals or quasi casuals, feel the incessant need to rank Ali P4P top 5; to those who give into his self-professed hype of being "The Greatest", I find myself not rustled in the least, as there is no room to take them seriously in the least. Off topic again, I was curious to see where Ray Leonard falls on your rankings.

Oh, and to be on topic, I am not well-schooled yet enough on Leonard to make an educated response.
Stop trying so hard to impress hipsters and come across as knowledgable you fruity goggle-eyed assblood.

Why do you people have to infiltrate the boxing world too? One of the last remaining strongholds of hetero-erectus. I woulda thought people punching each other in the face would be too primitive and classless for you slobs of green baby shit?
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:56 AM   #58
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

Heavyweights get underrated p4p.
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:33 AM   #59
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Default Re: Should we rate Benny Leonard a little higher?

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This is an open question as opposed to a persuasion - not necessarily an argument in favour of, nor intended to be a well structured essay, just some food for thought.

Leonard is pretty well regarded anyway, and many if not most posters here seem to have him in their top fifteen all-time list. Less frequently he will appear in the top five - but should it be a case of more frequently?

For a time I rated Duran the greatest lightweight ever, and I can't think why. Ability? Arguable (I'd say painfully even), but not if we're talking about what they accomplished at the weight.

Leonard's record is incredible. At one point, between the years 1917 and 1924 he amassed a streak of 80-2-1 (counting newspaper decisions), the only losses being a four rounder to the excellent Willie Ritchie who he later knocked out and a disqualification to the great welterweight, Jack Britton, with the draw coming against the other great welterweight of the era, Ted Kid Lewis. During this period he also expressed superiority over such Hall of Famers as Johnny Dundee, Johnny Kilbane, Freddie Welsh and Lew Tendler, against whom he resulted 4-0, 1-0, 1-0 and 2-0 respectively - and 2-1 against Britton. Rocky Kansas and the previously mentioned Willie Ritchie were two particularly notables who Leonard went 4-0 and 1-1 with. He beat everyone worth fighting within about ten pounds of the lightweight limit either way; Charley 'KO' White and Soldier Bartfield were among the other top names Leonard beat on his run of dominance.

They say he had it all, scoring high in categories such as 'intelligence', 'technique' and 'movement' whilst also possessing excellent power and a great jaw. It's important to realise that up until Ray Robinson became consensus, Benny Leonard was considered by many to be the greatest of all time and was also a big draw in his own era, commanding massive crowds and setting records. It is interesting to note that although Leonard was stopped five times, four of those occurred within his first year fighting (aged fifteen and sixteen) and the other in his very last fight against Jimmy McLarnin - a knockout-free period of twenty years and one hundred and ninety eight bouts.

I rate Leonard #5 and I may move him to #4 on my pound-for-pound list.
An amendment - I didn't realise Willie Ritchie and Rocky Kansas were in the Hall of Fame! This means that within his 80-2-1 streak, Leonard's record against Hall of Famers was:

15-2-1!

Ted Kid Lewis 0-0-1
Jack Britton 2-1
Johnny Dundee 4-0
Freddie Welsh 1-0
Johnny Kilbane 1-0
Lew Tendler 2-0
Rocky Kansas 4-0
Willie Ritchie 1-1

One loss was a disqualification to a great welterweight he was about to knock out, the other loss was a four rounder which he avenged emphatically. The draw came to another great welterweight.

Anyone who rates Leonard below #6 has some thinking to do in my book. Completely dominated his era.
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