Riddick Bowe vs Vitali Klitschko

[NoNeck]

Bowe's defense was sloppy as hell. Vitali would tee off with the right hand and win the fight. Vitali's power during his best years was fine and his workrate was better than Bowe's.

[Absolutely!]

Originally Posted by DrMo

You really need to watch more Bowe fights, I disagree with almost every point you've made there.

Show me an example of Bowe jabbing his way in on a skilled big man to go to work on the inside, a skilled big man who's determined to keep him at jab range.

[NoNeck]

Originally Posted by Absolutely!

Show me an example of Bowe jabbing his way in on a skilled big man to go to work on the inside, a skilled big man who's determined to keep him at jab range.

*waiting for upcoming Jorge Luis Gonzales post*

[Nay_Sayer]

Exactly who has Klitschko beaten that's even remotely on Bowe's level?

Klitschko has no jab to speak of, throws arm punches and we all saw what happened when he last fought a skilled Super Heavy.

Bowe easy...

[NoNeck]

Lewis had a much easier time with Bowe than Vitali.

[Nay_Sayer]

Originally Posted by NoNeck

Lewis had a much easier time with Bowe than Vitali.

LOL..

Lewis and Bowe fought as amatuers. That fight is meaningless where professional prize fighting is concerned.

[MRBILL]

Originally Posted by NoNeck

Bowe's defense was sloppy as hell. Vitali would tee off with the right hand and win the fight. Vitali's power during his best years was fine and his workrate was better than Bowe's.

V.K.'s physical condition and training habits also smokes anything Bowe ever attempted in the gym.....


MR.BILL

[MRBILL]

I'm tweaked and just popped in "Bowe-Golota 1" into the machine...... Golota broke out the whup-ass can on Bowe, despite the D.Q.

MR.BILL

[DrMo]

Originally Posted by Absolutely!

Show me an example of Bowe jabbing his way in on a skilled big man to go to work on the inside, a skilled big man who's determined to keep him at jab range.

Tyrell Biggs in 91 & Jorge Luiz Gonzalez in 95, both skilled big men with a successful amateur career.

Originally Posted by Absolutely!

Lewis did not jab or engage his attack in the same way as Bowe. Bowe's jab was mainly a keep away tool when he was taking a breather/recoup. It was sharp and crisp but mainly thrown with the upper body. It did not control distance except over very limited stretches of the fight because Bowe wasn't interested in fighting at anything other than close range; nor was it really used to open up fighters to combination attacks. When Bowe wanted to infight he'd generally just stand his ground and let his opponents come to him.

Bowe was happiest when exchanging at mid-range, where does this strange idea that Bowe simply stood still & waited for his opponents to approach him come from?

He only threw his jab to take a rest, not to measure distance & he didnt throw combinations off it?

Notice the way Bowe's leaning out as he jabs? Lewis did this as well, but he also had a much weightier full body jab which he'd step into when he wanted to close the distance/push opponents back/open them up to a right hand. It was this jab he was mainly using to beat up Vitali, together with a wide stance solid jab which he could pump out in multiples. I don't think he once used the type of snappy lean out jab that Bowe routinely used.

Ive never noticed that Bowe "leaned out" as he jabs because he generally didnt. Bowe's jab, in terms of mechanics was every bit as snappy as Lewis'.

Even at his age and level of conditioning Lennox was a much smarter and more versatile fighter than Bowe, whose deficiencies in fighting these types of fights were more than shown up the first time he fought Golota. Bowe's flat-footed, plodding forward, wait till you come to me approach would not give him the same sort of chances as Lennox.

I assume you are aware that Bowe was displaying signs of chronic brain injury before Golata 1. Compare his interview at the end of Holy 3 with Holy 1, Bowe's slurring his words so badly it almost sounds like a dfferent person.

Using Golata as an example of how Vitali would beat Bowe is like using the Vitali who fought Chisora as an example for the opposite & in no way reflects how either guy performed at their peak.

[Absolutely!]

Originally Posted by DrMo

Tyrell Biggs in 91 & Jorge Luiz Gonzalez in 95, both skilled big men with a successful amateur career.

And disappointing pro careers (though Gonzalez was undefeated at the time). Not a very strong body of evidence to go on.

Originally Posted by DrMo

Bowe was happiest when exchanging at mid-range, where does this strange idea that Bowe simply stood still & waited for his opponents to approach him come from?

It comes from watching him fight. Almost every time an opponent came forward Bowe stood his ground and banged it out with him on the inside. This was not a product of laziness, it was how he responded to aggressive fighters throughout his career. Watch the first Evander fight, universally acknowledged as his best performance, to see him doing this.

As for engaging on his own terms, Bowe was capable when focussed, but too often just resorted to plodding forward behind a lazy or non-existent jab, trusting to his greater size and resilience to walk through his opponents' shots and get in with his own. His mid-range offence was decent but not exceptional, and his lack of defensive prowess meant he could be outboxed from here. It was on the inside that Bowe was most effective.

Originally Posted by DrMo

He only threw his jab to take a rest, not to measure distance & he didnt throw combinations off it?

I didn't exactly say that now did I? My point was that while Bowe was capable of throwing a very good crisp jab he didn't use it consistently enough for it to play a major factor in most of his fights, nor did he use it in the way a big man should to maximise his advantages of height and reach. Compared to Lennox, Wlad or even Vitali, his jab was not a dominant part of his arsenal.

Originally Posted by DrMo

Ive never noticed that Bowe "leaned out" as he jabs because he generally didnt. Bowe's jab, in terms of mechanics was every bit as snappy as Lewis'.

Yes it was snappy, but a jab's worth is measured by how you use it over the course of the fight not in simple mechanics. Lennox's jab was unquestionably the more versatile and better used weapon than Bowe's occasionally snappy, occasionally lazy and often inconsistent one.

Originally Posted by DrMo

I assume you are aware that Bowe was displaying signs of chronic brain injury before Golata 1. Compare his interview at the end of Holy 3 with Holy 1, Bowe's slurring his words so badly it almost sounds like a dfferent person.

Using Golata as an example of how Vitali would beat Bowe is like using the Vitali who fought Chisora as an example for the opposite & in no way reflects how either guy performed at their peak.

Fine. You want to use the Biggs or Gonzalez fight for that?

[DrMo]

Originally Posted by Absolutely!

And disappointing pro careers (though Gonzalez was undefeated at the time). Not a very strong body of evidence to go on.

Its more convincing than the reverse. What happened when Vitali faced a skilled, big guy prepared to go to war with him? He lasted 6 rounds & was completely fucked by the end.

Bowe in 1992 is a far superior fighter to Lewis in 2003, he is also far more effective at the style & adept in the tactics which Lennox employed to beat Vitali.

It comes from watching him fight. Almost every time an opponent came forward Bowe stood his ground and banged it out with him on the inside. This was not a product of laziness, it was how he responded to aggressive fighters throughout his career. Watch the first Evander fight, universally acknowledged as his best performance, to see him doing this.

Early doors Evander was getting bashed up on the outside by Bowe's jab, he tried to press the action inside but got beaten up even worse.

Bowe loved coming forward & letting his hands go, anyone prepared to stand up to him got a beating. He could jab from distance, throw powerful overhands & hooks when in range & rip uppercuts & bodyshots in close.

As for engaging on his own terms, Bowe was capable when focussed, but too often just resorted to plodding forward behind a lazy or non-existent jab, trusting to his greater size and resilience to walk through his opponents' shots and get in with his own. His mid-range offence was decent but not exceptional, and his lack of defensive prowess meant he could be outboxed from here. It was on the inside that Bowe was most effective.

Agree with some of that, but not the last sentence. Virtually none of Bowe's KOs came from the inside, he was always more effective with a little more room to get leverage on his shots.

I didn't exactly say that now did I? My point was that while Bowe was capable of throwing a very good crisp jab he didn't use it consistently enough for it to play a major factor in most of his fights, nor did he use it in the way a big man should to maximise his advantages of height and reach. Compared to Lennox, Wlad or even Vitali, his jab was not a dominant part of his arsenal.

In the majority of Bowe's fights his opponents were unwilling to engage & tried to use lateral movement to stay away from the big guy. He relied on his jab a lot in all of those fights.

I dont know why there seems to be this idea on ESB that the only way for a big HW to fight is like Wlad or an older Lewis (both trained by Steward) If a big guy can fight effectively on the inside why should he be uber-cautious & rely so heavily on a jab & grab strategy.

Yes it was snappy, but a jab's worth is measured by how you use it over the course of the fight not in simple mechanics. Lennox's jab was unquestionably the more versatile and better used weapon than Bowe's occasionally snappy, occasionally lazy and often inconsistent one.

Lewis relied on his jab a lot more but I wouldnt qualify it as being superior.

Fine. You want to use the Biggs or Gonzalez fight for that?

The Biggs fight was only 2 years into his career & isnt the ideal showcase for Bowe at his best. Gonzalez was Bowe's last serious training camp (he really hated him from the amateur days, JLG had beaten Bowe & Lewis btw) & his last great performance.

I'd take the Bowe from 92/93 over any version of Vitali. Too skilled, too powerful & too intense.

The ony time Vitali's been in deep water he drowned after 6 rounds & Bowe would drag him to places he's never been before. I'll take the battle-proven Bowe over Vitali every day of the week.

[Absolutely!]

Originally Posted by DrMo

Its more convincing than the reverse. What happened when Vitali faced a skilled, big guy prepared to go to war with him? He lasted 6 rounds & was completely fucked by the end.

Bowe in 1992 is a far superior fighter to Lewis in 2003, he is also far more effective at the style & adept in the tactics which Lennox employed to beat Vitali.

Will agree with you to a point, but even at Lewis's age and level of conditioning (which gets a little overblown I think) he still had all the smarts, experience and caginess that he'd earned over a lifetime of fighting most of the who's who in one of the deepest heavyweight eras in history.

Lewis was always a much smarter fighter than Bowe and was able to adapt mid-fight to get the better of his opponents. Against Vitali he was outgunned and getting beaten to the punch till the third, when he surprised Vit by darting forward and catching him with the overhand right at the start of the round. That wasn't just blind aggression, it was a calculated move designed to catch Vit sleeping and it worked. He showed a lot of similar moves throughout the rest of the fight, as well as a nice mixture of outside fighting and brawling to rough Klitschko up.

Superficially, these are the things Bowe does well, but the difference between Lewis and Bowe is that Bowe was a one note fighter who fought on instinct and heart, whilst Lewis was a boxer who understood the tools he had and the best way to use them to win fights.

Lewis beat Vit with a mixture of heart, power and ringsmarts. Bowe had plenty of the first, quite a bit of the second, and very little of the third, and that would be the difference here.

Originally Posted by DrMo

Early doors Evander was getting bashed up on the outside by Bowe's jab, he tried to press the action inside but got beaten up even worse.

Really? I don't see that at all. I see Holyfield trading with Bowe on the outside, doubling and tripling his jabs and beating him to the punch with his superior footwork and explosive handspeed. I see Bowe landing a few heavy jabs but not dominating or controlling range. When Evander decided to close, Bowe was only too willing to stand there are engage. The times Bowe himself engaged, he literally just kept plodding forward until he got into Evander's phonebooth. There was very little setting up with the jab, footwork, cornering. It was Evander dictating the texture of the fight those early rounds, not Bowe. Sure, he got beaten down in the end, but that was due to Bowe's size and strength, not his superior skills.

Originally Posted by DrMo

Bowe loved coming forward & letting his hands go, anyone prepared to stand up to him got a beating. He could jab from distance, throw powerful overhands & hooks when in range & rip uppercuts & bodyshots in close.

Vitali wouldn't stand in a phonebox with him. He'd box him the way he fought every come forward slugger after Lennox. Bowe would be forced to trade jabs with Vitali and I don't see that going well for him. Vitali isn't fast handed but it wasn't speed that bothered Bowe but consistency. Vitali has always been the far more consistent and mentally focussed fighter. Bowe could maintain consistency for short periods, but he'd always go back to his brawling inside style after a while. He was also incredibly easy to hit, and Vitali has the sort of raw strength that would keep him at bay.

Originally Posted by DrMo

Agree with some of that, but not the last sentence. Virtually none of Bowe's KOs came from the inside, he was always more effective with a little more room to get leverage on his shots.

It was nonetheless where he did the majority of his work when he could.

Originally Posted by DrMo

In the majority of Bowe's fights his opponents were unwilling to engage & tried to use lateral movement to stay away from the big guy. He relied on his jab a lot in all of those fights.

I dont know why there seems to be this idea on ESB that the only way for a big HW to fight is like Wlad or an older Lewis (both trained by Steward) If a big guy can fight effectively on the inside why should he be uber-cautious & rely so heavily on a jab & grab strategy.

It's not the only way for a big man to fight, but it's definitely the smartest and most effective if he wants to maximise his advantages and have a long career. Bowe made things a hell of a lot harder for himself than he had to, and gave his opponents opportunities that they shouldn't have had. Had he fought a disciplined fight and stayed behind his jab he'd have been a much tougher prospect for anyone, but he was too willing to let his heart do the talking and rely on others to do the same.

Originally Posted by DrMo

Lewis relied on his jab a lot more but I wouldnt qualify it as being superior.

It depends on what you're looking for. For me Lennox had the harder, more versatile and more well-timed jab, and he knew precisely how to use it to assert his dominance in the ring. Bowe's was a little snappier, but it was inconsistent and he didn't use it with anywhere near the same effectiveness throughout the course of a fight. If he did then he would have handled Golota with ease that first time, regardless of his level of conditioning, the way Holmes and, yes, Lennox were able to do at the tail end of their careers.

Originally Posted by DrMo

The Biggs fight was only 2 years into his career & isnt the ideal showcase for Bowe at his best. Gonzalez was Bowe's last serious training camp (he really hated him from the amateur days, JLG had beaten Bowe & Lewis btw) & his last great performance.

I'd take the Bowe from 92/93 over any version of Vitali. Too skilled, too powerful & too intense.

The ony time Vitali's been in deep water he drowned after 6 rounds & Bowe would drag him to places he's never been before. I'll take the battle-proven Bowe over Vitali every day of the week.

I'd say you laid out a good case for believing so. I can certainly see Bowe doing all these things and taking the win. However, at the risk of repeating myself, I'd say that Vitali's consistency and adeptness at maintaining his range, coupled with his heavy hands and innate toughness would expose a lot of Bowe's bad habits and grind him down for a unanimous decision win.

[KOTF]

Bowe via newspaper decision