Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

[KOTF]

I wonder what position Wlad would play in gridiron football

[NoNeck]

Originally Posted by KOTF

I wonder what position Wlad would play in gridiron football

QB, tight end, or kicker. Nothing else.

[Rajon Rondo]

Originally Posted by KOTF

I wonder what position Wlad would play in gridiron football

Left Right Out in all probability.

[rusak]

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

Maybe I need to read some previous posts but are you trying to argue that Marciano would niether be taller or bigger if he was born in the modern era?

This discussion is absolutely asinine. It's completely speculative. If Marciano was born 50 years later, he might have become an accountant. There is no point in engaging in such speculation. We should compare Marciano as he was to Klitschko as he is.

[edward morbius]

Heights in NBA

Starting lineup 1956-57 Boston Celtics

Bill Russell-----6' 9"
Tom Heinsohn-6' 7"
Jim Loscutoff--6' 5"
Bob Cousy----6' 1"
Bill Sharman---6' 2"

1957-58 St Louis Hawks

Charley Share-----6' 11"
Cliff Hagan--------6' 4"
Bob Pettit---------6' 9"
Slater Martin------5' 10"
Jack McMahon----6' 1"

Now the 2011 Miami Heat

one 7'
two 6' 11"
two 6' 10"
two 6' 9"
five 6' 8"

It does seem to me that the Heat is a much bigger team.

[edward morbius]

Originally Posted by rusak

This discussion is absolutely asinine. It's completely speculative. If Marciano was born 50 years later, he might have become an accountant. There is no point in engaging in such speculation. We should compare Marciano as he was to Klitschko as he is.

I agree completely. We have no idea what size Marciano would be in the modern world or the Klitschkos would have been in the old world.

The point to me, though, is that we are comparing apples to tractors. There is no basis of comparision.

Marciano was big enough to defeat anyone walking the Earth in his day and so was the heavyweight champion.

Wlad Klitschko can claim the same.

Their achievements can be compared, but just taking all the advantages of the modern world and flipping them against Marciano is utterly pointless.

I remember a discussion on the radio in which a caller expressed the thought that the Oakland Raiders of a few years ago (a 3-13 team) were really better than the Lombardi Packers. The announcer agreed, but also said greatness is only judged against others in your own era and the Raiders were a poor team while the Packers (five time NFL champions) had been a great team.

I think that rebuttal remains the bottom line.

The only comparisions between Wlad and Rocky which make any sense is a record comparision. Who did better against the opposition available?

All I can say about a direct head-to-head of two men who didn't live at the same time and in which size becomes the major issue is zzzzzzzzz

[Rajon Rondo]

Originally Posted by edward morbius

Heights in NBA

Starting lineup 1956-57 Boston Celtics

Bill Russell-----6' 9"
Tom Heinsohn-6' 7"
Jim Loscutoff--6' 5"
Bob Cousy----6' 1"
Bill Sharman---6' 2"

1957-58 St Louis Hawks

Charley Share-----6' 11"
Cliff Hagan--------6' 4"
Bob Pettit---------6' 9"
Slater Martin------5' 10"
Jack McMahon----6' 1"

Now the 2011 Miami Heat

one 7'
two 6' 11"
two 6' 10"
two 6' 9"
five 6' 8"

It does seem to me that the Heat is a much bigger team.

Yeah actually basketball is a great comparison to use because they players on average today are significantly bigger overall than the guys from the 50's and 60's bar your freaks like Wilt Chamberlain and heavyweight boxing was similar when comparing the heights of then to now.

Out of interest who was the guy who was 7 foot on the 11 Heat team? They were desperately short of capable big men, can only think it was Eddy Curry?

[Rajon Rondo]

Originally Posted by rusak

This discussion is absolutely asinine. It's completely speculative. If Marciano was born 50 years later, he might have become an accountant. There is no point in engaging in such speculation. We should compare Marciano as he was to Klitschko as he is.

Well then should we compare them at all as they would be in different weight classes today? Even still, I take Rocky lol.

[edward morbius]

Rajon Rondo

It is Eddy Curry who didn't play much.

One thing to remember though, there were only 8 NBA and 12 NFL teams in the 1950's, so big men who could play should have been more concentrated.

I don't think there should really be much dispute that modern athletes are much bigger.

[edward morbius]

on heights,

Union soldiers in the American Civil War averaged 5' 7"

WWII inductees averaged 5' 8"

According to the WHO these are some current average male hts 20-39

Canada---------5' 8.5"
Denmark--------5' 11.1"
France----------5' 8.5"
Germany--------5' 10"
Italy------------5' 9"
Netherlands-----6'
New Zealand----5' 9.7"
United Kingdom--5' 9.6"
USA------------5' 10.2"

Although John Komlos seems to draw a lot of conclusions about income inequality, etc about the USA, in fact young US males according to the WHO are taller than those of France, Germany, Italy, or the United Kingdom.

**Americans might eat too much junk food, but a trip to the grocery store shows a spectacular display of fruits, vegatables, meats, dairy products, etc, and most of this is cheaper than the junk food. If Americans eat poorly, to a great extent it is because they choose to.

[Rajon Rondo]

Originally Posted by edward morbius

Rajon Rondo

It is Eddy Curry who didn't play much.

One thing to remember though, there were only 8 NBA and 12 NFL teams in the 1950's, so big men who could play should have been more concentrated.

I don't think there should really be much dispute that modern athlete's are much bigger.

No there shouldn't, its no secret that as people have evolved over time they have gotten bigger.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by edward morbius

Heights in NBA

Starting lineup 1956-57 Boston Celtics

Bill Russell-----6' 9"
Tom Heinsohn-6' 7"
Jim Loscutoff--6' 5"
Bob Cousy----6' 1"
Bill Sharman---6' 2"

1957-58 St Louis Hawks

Charley Share-----6' 11"
Cliff Hagan--------6' 4"
Bob Pettit---------6' 9"
Slater Martin------5' 10"
Jack McMahon----6' 1"

Now the 2011 Miami Heat

one 7'
two 6' 11"
two 6' 10"
two 6' 9"
five 6' 8"

It does seem to me that the Heat is a much bigger team.

Remember the old Scotty Pippen commercial where he's playing in the 1950's and the recruiter says... "Son, you could make hundreds of dollars playing this game"?

Well, now, it's millions for not even playing very well, and many millions more if you get a shoe deal... and many, many millions more if the shoe company gets the right endorser. So, the recruitment has been ratcheted up about a billion fold.

I even heard an interview last week with Kobe Bryant lamenting the demise of the big man, asking "Where did they all go? It's like someone pushed a button and they disappeared." He was speaking entering the league in an era of Shaq, Rik Smits, Ewing, Mourning...

From my Google warrior research, it seems the height of the average adult US male is in fact going down, even accounting for immigration, due to sedentary lifestyle and poor diet (junk food), two problems from which Marciano did not suffer. You can follow the links I posted above to read more.

If you take further in consideration that he was the son of immigrants from Abruzzo and Campania, both in Southern Italy, you will realize he already was a giant for that particular gene pool. Having often visited there I can attest anecdotally that the folks just aren't that tall down there. Statistically, men in Southern Italy still only average 5 foot 8, about the same as Japan.

And again, the point has been made, that all the conjuring, compensating and imagining has nothing to do with Marciano, the actual fighter.

[edward morbius]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Remember the old Scotty Pippen commercial where he's playing in the 1950's and the recruiter says... "Son, you could make hundreds of dollars playing this game"?

Well, now, it's millions for not even playing very well, and many millions more if you get a shoe deal... and many, many millions more if the shoe company gets the right endorser. So, the recruitment has been ratcheted up about a billion fold.

I even heard an interview last week with Kobe Bryant lamenting the demise of the big man, asking "Where did they all go? It's like someone pushed a button and they disappeared." He was speaking entering the league in an era of Shaq, Rik Smits, Ewing, Mourning...

From my Google warrior research, it seems the height of the average adult US male is in fact going down, even accounting for immigration, due to sedentary lifestyle and poor diet (junk food), two problems from which Marciano did not suffer. You can follow the links I posted above to read more.

If you take further in consideration that he was the son of immigrants from Abruzzo and Campania, both in Southern Italy, you will realize he already was a giant for that particular gene pool. Having often visited there I can attest anecdotally that the folks just aren't that tall down there. Statistically, men in Southern Italy still only average 5 foot 8, about the same as Japan.

And again, the point has been made, that all the conjuring, compensating and imagining has nothing to do with Marciano, the actual fighter.

"men in Southern Italy still only average 5 foot 8"

Yes and I agree that there is no way of telling if Marciano would have grown taller today.


"height of the average adult American male is going down"

This is not what I found.

CDC (Center for Disease Control) has the average adult American male going from 5' 8" in 1960 to slightly over 5' 9.5" in 2006. That is not getting shorter by any means.

WHO--has the average adult American male between 20-39 at 5' 10.2", taller than Great Britain, France, Italy, or Germany, or in fact most of the rest of the world. This despite a significant percentage of Mexican-Americans who average 5' 7" and pull the total average down.

Army--Komlos seems to be selecting facts here. The average soldier in the Civil War was 5' 7". In WWII it was 5' 8". I don't know what the average soldier would be today, but off the WHO figures, if a cross-section it should be about 5' 10". If it is not, the volunteer army is shorter than the average male while the conscript armies were not. That is possible. Those turning to the army as a way out and a way up would probably be from the lower classes, and upper class folks tend to be taller, all other factors equal. The conscript army was everyone with the sickly (who I assume would average shorter) weeded out.

[edward morbius]

"the point has been made, that all the conjuring, compensating and imagining has nothing to do with Maricano"

Who swept his era and retired with a perfect record while Wlad has been ko'd three times and Vitali twice.

That can't be changed either.

[Unforgiven]

The height of the American male lead movie actors has gone down.
Loads more of the old-time movie stars were 6'2 and 6'3. Greg Peck, Joel McCrea, Gary Cooper, Charlton Heston, James Stewart.
Even Clark Gable was 6'. Cary Grant 6'1. Burt Lancaster 6' or more.
Short ones like Cagney and Bogart were rare.
John Wayne was 6'4. So was Robert Ryan.

Nowadays most of the big movie stars are under 6', or so it seems.
There might be a technical reason for that, I dunno.

It's interesting. If John Wayne was born 60 years later he'd be like 7 foot tall.
(but he probably wouldn't shoot as many 'injuns')