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Old 01-16-2013, 05:19 PM   #76
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Default Re: If Floyd retires this year after beating Guerrero and Canelo

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Originally Posted by bjl12 View Post
The weight wasn't much of an issue. The time he fought Cotto was very... "convenient". He was plastered by margacheato and then given a gift decision vs clottey. cotto was ready to lose to anyone at that point.
Nevada cleared Tony of any wrong doing for that fight, the burden of proof is on you.
but lets assume your right, then this means Floyd win over Cotto is worth much less than Mannys win over Cotto..
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Old 01-16-2013, 05:29 PM   #77
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Default Re: If Floyd retires this year after beating Guerrero and Canelo

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Guerrero and Alvarez are nobodies. In 20 years nobody will know / care who they are.

Floyd has a pretty good resume on paper, but when you look at the context and who he actually beat and when it doesn't add up.

Corrales, Castillo, Hernandez, Oscar and Hatton were all solid to good wins, bottom line.

The rest are a bunch of nobodies, paper champs, or shot / over the hill fighters.

Floyd is an ATG due to his multiple titles / weight divisions, and (for now) undefeated record but it lacks substance, and that's what will ultimately be remembered.
Well, I've said several times that I think Floyd is a top 25 ATG if he retired now and that these forums will look like a joke 30-50 years from now when historians and fans read through them and see that somehow, fans of nowadays think that no fighter of the past 15 years is among the 40 best who've ever laced them up. I've also said that it's unfair to rank active fighters among those retired from the past. But if I would, I couldn't name 25 fighters better, sorry. And it's not from a lack of knowledge and appreciation from fighters past, quite the opposite. I've always favored fighters from decades long ago. But I also think that most people favor them too much.

---

Corrales, Castillo, Genaro, Oscar, Hatton, Mosley, JMM, Cotto are not just "solid to good wins, bottom line." They are great wins. Unless you feel that most of the guys currently in the HOF only have solid to good wins and no or only a couple great wins. See, you raise your standards and are a hypocrite because it's Mayweather and you hate him and/or his fans.

All of the above guys are going to be in the HOF, as well as Gatti being in the HOF (even if he doesn't deserve it), and Zab Judah honestly having a decent shot at it (nowhere close in my opinion, but it is what it is).

Answer me this... If Corrales, Castillo, Genaro, Oscar, and Hatton are the only wins on Mayweathers' ledger which are "solid to good wins, bottom line," then tell me which wins also meet those standards in the careers of contemporary HOF'ers Miguel Cotto, Wladimir Klitschko, Pongsaklek Wonjongkam, Shane Mosley, and Manny Pacquiao. Seriously. Do tell...
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Old 01-16-2013, 05:32 PM   #78
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Default Re: If Floyd retires this year after beating Guerrero and Canelo

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He's ducked a lot of tough fights, and history will remember that.
So?

Just because he COULD have fought better opponents, as could be said about EVERY FIGHTER EVER, doesn't impact at all who he did fight.

You need to get your head outta your ass and quit trying to reassure yourself of what you hope happens or is thought of years down the line.
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Old 01-16-2013, 06:31 PM   #79
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Default Re: If Floyd retires this year after beating Guerrero and Canelo

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Who of these fighters could you say was in their prime? Corrales, Castillo AND Canello if he beats him. IF. Its not only who you meet, but when you meet them


Edit : Hatton was also in his prime. So this makes him top 10-15?
nah of that list id say Castillio(2), Coralles, Judah, Canelo, Hatton, Guerrero, and Ortiz. I still wouldnt put Floyd in top 15 though
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Old 01-16-2013, 06:46 PM   #80
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Default Re: If Floyd retires this year after beating Guerrero and Canelo

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Originally Posted by Nonito Smoak View Post
So?

Just because he COULD have fought better opponents, as could be said about EVERY FIGHTER EVER, doesn't impact at all who he did fight.

You need to get your head outta your ass and quit trying to reassure yourself of what you hope happens or is thought of years down the line.
That's an understatement in Floyd's case - he ducked a lot of better opponents. Sometimes a fighter deserves a pass here and there, but in Floyd's case it's inexcusable. He spent over 5 years at WW and avoided just about every top / elite opponent during that time. It's a huge black mark on his legacy.

But lets look at who he did fight. Where is his single great / defining win ? Now name me another 'top 15' who doesnt' have one.

Castillo, Corrales, Oscar, Hatton, Herndanez, Mosley, and Cotto are not great wins, they are solid to good wins. I don't put JMM in there because that fight wasn't worth taking seriously. Mosley and Cotto could have been great wins, but he decided not to fight them until they were well over the hill. Oscar was at the end of his career.

Basically he doesn't have any great wins. He has some good / respectable wins and some solid ones. That and being undefeated , and winning the amount of belts he has in multiple weight divisions is enough to make him an ATG but he has serious question marks on his resume that can't be ignored.

Also if your gonna call Floyd a Top 15 then Pac must be top 10 because his resume and achievements are simply better.
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Old 01-16-2013, 06:46 PM   #81
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Default Re: If Floyd retires this year after beating Guerrero and Canelo

Top 15 is ridiculous. More like top 35 to 40. Also beating Canelo would not make Floyd the lineal champion. He would be the Ring champion though.
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Old 01-16-2013, 06:54 PM   #82
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Default Re: If Floyd retires this year after beating Guerrero and Canelo

I've no idea where I'd rank him but I struggle to see how he'd place above any if the trio of Ross, Canzoneri or McLarnin... I don't think it'd be outrageous to place him top 30 though buy it's so long since I did a list my prior attempt isn't really indicative of my current viewpoints.
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:44 PM   #83
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Default Re: If Floyd retires this year after beating Guerrero and Canelo

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Nevada cleared Tony of any wrong doing for that fight, the burden of proof is on you.
but lets assume your right, then this means Floyd win over Cotto is worth much less than Mannys win over Cotto..
Wrong. Cotto was very, very clearly shot to shit when he fought Manny. As he was only 2 fights removed from that plaster beating. He had accumulated a small winning streak and some revenge over that cheating **** before he fought Floyd. Floyd also fought Cotto at his weight class.

I cannot say that Floyd's win over Cotto is more meaningful than manny's though. They both fought a mere shadow. Cheating **** margs should be hung, but even that would be too good for him
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:54 PM   #84
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Default Re: If Floyd retires this year after beating Guerrero and Canelo

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Also if your gonna call Floyd a Top 15 then Pac must be top 10 because his resume and achievements are simply better.
Wrong. Pac's entire career above 135 is nothing short of suspect. He made a career fighting people at advantageous catchweights versus opponents coming off consecutive losses/beatings. Think of DLH/Mosley/Cotto/Margs/Hatton. These guys were all severely beaten in their recent past and were performing poorly prior to the time manny fought them. Very convenient opposition selection. So manny's resume looks "nice" on paper but in reality (the context of the fights) the above listed opponents were merely scraps of themselves.

Conversely, Floyd's made the consistent effort to do exactly the opposite. He fights fighters when they are coming off career victories and consecutive impressive performances. He fights guys in their primes. DLH/Mosley were not prime when those respective fights finally happened, but Floyd can't be held solely responsible for that. He called both those guys out from the days he fought at 135. When DLH/Mosley were prime, they were dodging Floyd.

Secondly, if you're being honest, you have to consider the very realistic possibility (and likelihood) that manny used ped's. Never before in the history of the sport has an athlete accomplished what manny did in the fashion that he did it. Normally a person can transcend weight classes when they have superior boxing skills/abilities. This is the case for the FMJ's/boxers. manny, however, moves up weight classes and is stronger and faster than guys at heavier weight classes. This is something that is very uncommon. And it's not just myself or the Mayweathers noticing this. Teddy Atlas, Paulie Malignaggi, Nate Campbell, Shane Mosley indirectly suggested it, as well as other boxers/trainers, that manny was on something.

Due to manny's insistence on not taking OSDT, his achievements must be further interpreted with skepticism. it is for these reasons that i rank manny as low as > 100. For you math rookies (filipinos/pacturds) that's less than 100.
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:55 PM   #85
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Default Re: If Floyd retires this year after beating Guerrero and Canelo

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Wrong. Cotto was very, very clearly shot to shit when he fought Manny. As he was only 2 fights removed from that plaster beating. He had accumulated a small winning streak and some revenge over that cheating **** before he fought Floyd. Floyd also fought Cotto at his weight class.

I cannot say that Floyd's win over Cotto is more meaningful than manny's though. They both fought a mere shadow. Cheating **** margs should be hung, but even that would be too good for him
Your argument has been shot down son Margarito clean read on deal with the truth and accept the reality [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:57 PM   #86
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Default Re: If Floyd retires this year after beating Guerrero and Canelo

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Originally Posted by Nonito Smoak View Post
Corrales, Castillo, Genaro, Oscar, Hatton, Mosley, JMM, Cotto are not just "solid to good wins, bottom line." They are great wins. Unless you feel that most of the guys currently in the HOF only have solid to good wins and no or only a couple great wins. See, you raise your standards and are a hypocrite because it's Mayweather and you hate him and/or his fans.
The manner in which Floyd defeated Corrales, Genaro, DLH, Hatton, Mosley, JMM, Cotto, and others, must be considered as well. That is, he mostly dominated them. It is unusual for anyone to defeat a cache of opponents of that caliber with such ease.
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:59 PM   #87
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Default Re: If Floyd retires this year after beating Guerrero and Canelo

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Your argument has been shot down son Margarito clean read on deal with the truth and accept the reality [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
And? Shane Mosley never failed a commissioned drug test in his life, but he's a proven/admitted steroid user. Just because there's no definitive proof that margs did use wraps versus Cotto doesn't mean he didn't. If you watch the fight, and margs future fights/Cotto's past fights, it makes much more sense that margs was using the wraps.

pac was/is on ped's. Leakage will come somewhere down the line.
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:09 PM   #88
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Default Re: If Floyd retires this year after beating Guerrero and Canelo

His career above 130 has been a let down to me personally.
He missed too many names and has been inactive too many times to get into the top 20.

I was convinced i would put him there by the end of his career but i think top 35 is fair which is still a great achievement.
He is a bit of a waste of a talent for me but that is only because he had the potential to do much more.

Some rampant flomos on here though always act like he is the greatest based on the "would have beat him anyway" logic.
Well sorry but resumes are not based on theoretical wins.
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:18 PM   #89
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Default Re: If Floyd retires this year after beating Guerrero and Canelo

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And? Shane Mosley never failed a commissioned drug test in his life, but he's a proven/admitted steroid user. Just because there's no definitive proof that margs did use wraps versus Cotto doesn't mean he didn't. If you watch the fight, and margs future fights/Cotto's past fights, it makes much more sense that margs was using the wraps.

pac was/is on ped's. Leakage will come somewhere down the line.
please it doesnt make sense to shake everybodys hand after you beat Cotto if you had loaded wraps get the **** out of here seriously.........

and what happened since losing to Mosley wheres the drug testing results for that fight? we already know Margarito had to cut weight in a short period of time but seriously wheres the drug testing results?
losing to Pac well P4P ranked #1 fighter not a bad loss there, ohh wait Cotto rematch? even though the mother ****er answered the Dr correctly each and every time the moment Cotto was clearly out of Gas the Puerto Rican Dr stopped the fight....

seriously get the **** out of here with your ignorance
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:22 PM   #90
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Default Re: If Floyd retires this year after beating Guerrero and Canelo

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He will be 45-0 and a 9 time champion(should be 10) in 5 divisions and a 4 time linela champion(cause the canelo fight would be for the ring/lineal title)
he'd have wins over

Shane
Oscar
Corrales
Castillo
Ortiz
Marquez
Hatton
Gatti
Cotto
Canelo
Guerrero
Hernendez
Judah


If he pulls this off and retires and stays retired he would have to go down as a top 10-15 all time great and thats being objective,sorry no way around it..name me another fighter who would be 45-0 9 times champion and a 4 time lineal champion..that is unheard of
Agreed, he would definately be an all-time great. He probably already is.
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