Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

[Bummy Davis]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Photos can be very deceiving as any photog will tell you. I have several first hand accounts of Wayne, including from costars, all stating that he seemed a legit six foot four.

But was he packing like a gnat?

Marciano lowers his t rex arms for body work and this fight is over early. He can't close the distance well enough and he doesn't get off fast enoughn. The more I think of this match up, the bigger the demolition of the wee fellow and the Italian American pyche.

one thing the Italian Americans have showed us is great heart, and great chins = Marciano,Lamotta,Maxim,Basilio,Canzonari, Ambers,etc.....you may be able to beat the wee fellows body but don't bank on beating the Italian American Psyche....As a boxing fan I appreciate most ethnic backgrounds, I see you have a thing with Italians so maybe you got slighted or beat up or one stole your girl.....I appreciate fighters and race or nationality matters not to me, I don't even root for all Americans just because they are Americans, I really like the Klitchko's and many European fighters but some guys like yourself have a thing beyond an opinion and that statement above is quite revealing

[edward morbius]

Originally Posted by Seamus

My contention goes further than merely that size wins this one for Wlad.

Wlad is quite simply the greater heavyweight. He has been the best heavyweight on the planet, not in Rhode Island, for almost as long as Rocky's entire career. He has been able to fend off the old guard, his contemporaries (many who have already retired) and he is working on the new guard. He is fighting in an era which recruits worldwide... Africa, North America, Eastern Europe, a power-first era for the division when heavies simply dwarf those of the '50's.

Wlad not only demolishes Marciano; he is the greater heavyweight.

Wlad never beat the next best heavyweight out there. Might not be any fault of his own, but he hasn't done it. He compares more to Dempsey not fighting Wills.

"best heavyweight on the planet, not in Rhode Island"

Kind of a silly argument. Marciano beat every man who was heavyweight champion during his active career--Louis, Charles, Walcott.

It is Wlad who has not beaten the best men during his time--Holyfield, Lewis, Vitali. Again, not his fault, but he didn't do it.

I grant that he does have a great deal of longevity.

"Recruited from the world"

Perhaps too much. Wlad has fought too many Americans and not enough eastern-bloc fighters now that they are the top men.

Marciano's major victims were American, but why not. They were the best out there, and had beaten the best heavyweights from around the world. Heavyweights were recruited from all over then too.

Joe Louis--defeated Europeans Schmeling, Carnera, Uzcudun, Birkie--British Empire champion Farr--Latins Agramonte, Brescia, Godoy, Brion

Joe Walcott--defeated Euro champs Tandberg and Ten Hoff, as well as Agramonte

Moore--Beat the best in Australia. Beat Latin fighters too numerous to mention, and also Euros.

Cockell--won the Euro light heavy title from the Algerian Albert Yvel and defended the British Empire championship against South African Johnny Arthur.

Even Lee Savold stopped British Empire champion Bruce Woodcock.

One or another of Marciano's major victims defeated fighters from every continent except perhaps Asia which had champions and top contenders, but not at the larger weights.

Boxing was a world sport in that era, also.

There is one factoid that Wlad and Vitali have on Marciano, though. They have each been stopped on two continents. Marciano on none.

Wlad has been stopped in three different countries. Vitali in two. Marciano in none.

[edward morbius]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Photos can be very deceiving as any photog will tell you. I have several first hand accounts of Wayne, including from costars, all stating that he seemed a legit six foot four.

But was he packing like a gnat?

Marciano lowers his t rex arms for body work and this fight is over early. He can't close the distance well enough and he doesn't get off fast enoughn. The more I think of this match up, the bigger the demolition of the wee fellow and the Italian American pyche.

"The more I think of this match up"

This is what is known as a fantasy.

Thankfully, when I was a young fellow, mine ran in more interesting directions.

[Bummy Davis]

Originally Posted by edward morbius

Wlad never beat the next best heavyweight out there. Might not be any fault of his own, but he hasn't done it. He compares more to Dempsey not fighting Wills.

"best heavyweight on the planet, not in Rhode Island"

Kind of a silly argument. Marciano beat every man who was heavyweight champion during his active career--Louis, Charles, Walcott.

It is Wlad who has not beaten the best men during his time--Holyfield, Lewis, Vitali. Again, not his fault, but he didn't do it.

I grant that he does have a great deal of longevity.

"Recruited from the world"

Perhaps too much. Wlad has fought too many Americans and not enough eastern-bloc fighters now that they are the top men.

Marciano's major victims were American, but why not. They were the best out there, and had beaten the best heavyweights from around the world. Heavyweights were recruited from all over then too.

Joe Louis--defeated Europeans Schmeling, Carnera, Uzcudun, Birkie--British Empire champion Farr--Latins Agramonte, Brescia, Godoy, Brion

Joe Walcott--defeated Euro champs Tandberg and Ten Hoff, as well as Agramonte

Moore--Beat the best in Australia. Beat Latin fighters too numerous to mention, and also Euros.

Cockell--won the Euro light heavy title from the Algerian Albert Yvel and defended the British Empire championship against South African Johnny Arthur.

Even Lee Savold stopped British Empire champion Bruce Woodcock.

One or another of Marciano's major victims defeated fighters from every continent except perhaps Asia which had champions and top contenders, but not at the larger weights.

Boxing was a world sport in that era, also.

There is one factoid that Wlad and Vitali have on Marciano, though. They have each been stopped on two continents. Marciano on none.

Wlad has been stopped in three different countries. Vitali in two. Marciano in none.

good stuff

[Bummy Davis]

Originally Posted by edward morbius

"The more I think of this match up"

This is what is known as a fantasy.

Thankfully, when I was a young fellow, mine ran in more interesting directions.

me too Thank goodness

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by edward morbius

"The more I think of this match up"

This is what is known as a fantasy.

Thankfully, when I was a young fellow, mine ran in more interesting directions.

So you made conclusions on this match-up by not thinking about it?

And odds are that I am older than you.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by edward morbius

Wlad never beat the next best heavyweight out there. Might not be any fault of his own, but he hasn't done it. He compares more to Dempsey not fighting Wills.

"best heavyweight on the planet, not in Rhode Island"

Kind of a silly argument. Marciano beat every man who was heavyweight champion during his active career--Louis, Charles, Walcott.

But look at what was available. A shot Louis who was only in the ring to pay off the tax man. A bona fide lighheavy in Charles. A Walcott on his last two fights after a long, damaging career. Marciano snuck in for a second at a transitional, vulnerable time in the division's history. He gets an A+ for timing.

Originally Posted by edward morbius

It is Wlad who has not beaten the best men during his time--Holyfield, Lewis, Vitali. Again, not his fault, but he didn't do it.

Did anyone really want to see Wlad against Holy at any time since 2006? Really? Lennox Claudius Lewis, who I hold in higher esteem, retired in 2004. Vitali is an exceptional case in that they are brothers which I half understand/half think it is very convenient for Waldo.

Originally Posted by edward morbius

"Recruited from the world"

Heavyweight are much more widely recruited in the geographic sense today than they were in 1950. Kazahkstan, Ukraine, Nigeria, US, UK, Belarus and Russia are all putting out top notch talent that is permitted and encouraged to participate in the pro ranks. In the 50's you could really only say that about the UK and US.

Originally Posted by edward morbius

There is one factoid that Wlad and Vitali have on Marciano, though. They have each been stopped on two continents. Marciano on none.

Wlad has been stopped in three different countries. Vitali in two. Marciano in none.

If my memory serves correct, Marciano traveled ONCE to fight outside the eastern US seaboard, and that was against Butterball Cockell in San Francisco, a fight in which many thought he should have been disqualified and a pretty wretched effort by his standards. He fought something like 33 of his 49 fights in Rhode Island, mostly in the same auditorium. So, home crowd, home ref's, comfortable surroundings and largely low-rate, third string, circuit fighters. How would he have done in other's backyards, traveling internationally with ref's who didn't look the other way on his rough stuff? I'm not convinced his career would have been radically different, but I think there would be a good chance for an L or two to be on his record.

[edward morbius]

Originally Posted by Seamus

So you made conclusions on this match-up by not thinking about it?

And odds are that I am older than you.

You are in your seventies?

I wouldn't have guessed that.

*I am just not interested in head-to-head matchups because they have become meaningless not only in boxing but in most sports because of the clearly observable explosion is size.

Why should I value a criteria which elevates the 2012 Jets over the 1950's Browns or the 1960's Packers?

That sort of fantasy strikes me now as worthless.

It made some sense up to the sixties or so and perhaps a bit longer, as you were comparing apples to apples in a sense. A tournament between Tom Cribb, John L Sullivan, Jack Dempsey, and Rocky Marciano, while covering 150 years, was still between men of similar size. We could consider them in the same weight class.

Now the whole argument boils down to size differentials dependent on outside the ring factors which are changing the very physical nature of men.

**on the more interesting point of the shift in top fighters from the US to the eastern bloc countries. There are two ways of looking at this--is something gone that was there before--sort of like the leopard becoming the top predator because the tiger was exterminated (eastern bloc fighters taking over because America is abandoning boxing)

or is it something being added--the leopard was the top predator but has been replaced by tigers expanding range (American heavyweights have lost their dominance because of new breed of super-fighter from eastern Europe)

It can be argued either way, or that both are partially true.

[Synthetic Decay]

Originally Posted by edward morbius

You are in your seventies?

I wouldn't have guessed that.

*I am just not interested in head-to-head matchups because they have become meaningless not only in boxing but in most sports because of the clearly observable explosion is size.

Why should I value a criteria which elevates the 2012 Jets over the 1950's Browns or the 1960's Packers?

That sort of fantasy strikes me now as worthless.

It made some sense up to the sixties or so and perhaps a bit longer, as you were comparing apples to apples in a sense. A tournament between Tom Cribb, John L Sullivan, Jack Dempsey, and Rocky Marciano, while covering 150 years, was still between men of similar size. We could consider them in the same weight class.

Now the whole argument boils down to size differentials dependent on outside the ring factors which are changing the very physical nature of men.

**on the more interesting point of the shift in top fighters from the US to the eastern bloc countries. There are two ways of looking at this--is something gone that was there before--sort of like the leopard becoming the top predator because the tiger was exterminated (eastern bloc fighters taking over because America is abandoning boxing)

or is it something being added--the leopard was the top predator but has been replaced by tigers expanding range (American heavyweights have lost their dominance because of new breed of super-fighter from eastern Europe)

It can be argued either way, or that both are partially true.

Very valid points in regards to comparisons.

As for where the talent is coming from, as is the case with most sports, i just think that there is more interest and a better structure in place for boxing in certain countries at this moment in time.

[Absolutely!]

Originally Posted by Synthetic Decay

Very valid points in regards to comparisons.

As for where the talent is coming from, as is the case with most sports, i just think that there is more interest and a better structure in place for boxing in certain countries at this moment in time.

That's more or less it. No need for NFL Cold War conspiracy theories. Countries with a better infrastructure for boxing and who put more of a focus on the sport are going to produce more top fighters than those which do not.

High levels of poverty also help at the grass roots level by providing a large number of willing participants.

[edward morbius]

"Heavyweights are more widely recruited"

Here is a list from the 1952 Ring rankings of rated and Class A & B fighters--top 100--from outside the USA

Cesar Brion--Argentina
Hein Ten Hoff--Germany
Johnny Williams--UK
Jack Gardner--UK
Omelio Agramonte--Cuba
Karel Sys--Belgium
-----------------
class A (top 50)

Ansell Adams--Trinidad
Reg Andrews--UK
Johnny Arthur--South Africa
Frank Bell--UK
Abel Cestac--Argentina
Arturo Godoy--Chile
Don Scott--UK
Paddy Slavin--Ireland
Piet Wilde--Belgium
Jo Weidin--Austria

Class B (50-100)

Uber Bacilieri--Italy
Gino Buonvino--Italy
Paco Bueno--Spain
Jimmy Carroll--UK
Allan Cooke--UK
Robert Eugene--Belgium
Tommy Farr--UK
Jan Klein--Holland
Wilson Kohlbrecher--Germany
Jack Marr--Australia
Stephane Olek--France
Heinz Neuhaus--Germany
Kurt Schiegl--Austria
Eddie Vann--UK
Werner Wiegand--Luxemburg

Clearly it is a little more than the USA or UK (I will give you credit for meaning the British Empire thus including Canada and Australia)

Top heavyweights were coming from Western Europe and Latin America, and it is certainly possible that both areas were more active boxing centers then than they are now. Not only possible but likely.

One thing to consider is that the world population was much different then than now, with a far higher % of the population in Europe and North America than today.

The 1950's had champions from central Africa (Hogan Bassey) and Asia (Yoshio Sharai) but these areas did not impact heavyweight boxing back then.

**The Soviets and other eastern bloc countries did compete in the Olympics in the 1950's but did not do that well. There is no reason to suspect that there was some great fighter out there but unknown. This argument is the flip side of arguing that the Klitschkos would not be champions if the best American big men were not in the NFL or NBA.

[edward morbius]

Originally Posted by Seamus

But look at what was available. A shot Louis who was only in the ring to pay off the tax man. A bona fide lighheavy in Charles. A Walcott on his last two fights after a long, damaging career. Marciano snuck in for a second at a transitional, vulnerable time in the division's history. He gets an A+ for timing.



Did anyone really want to see Wlad against Holy at any time since 2006? Really? Lennox Claudius Lewis, who I hold in higher esteem, retired in 2004. Vitali is an exceptional case in that they are brothers which I half understand/half think it is very convenient for Waldo.



Heavyweight are much more widely recruited in the geographic sense today than they were in 1950. Kazahkstan, Ukraine, Nigeria, US, UK, Belarus and Russia are all putting out top notch talent that is permitted and encouraged to participate in the pro ranks. In the 50's you could really only say that about the UK and US.




If my memory serves correct, Marciano traveled ONCE to fight outside the eastern US seaboard, and that was against Butterball Cockell in San Francisco, a fight in which many thought he should have been disqualified and a pretty wretched effort by his standards. He fought something like 33 of his 49 fights in Rhode Island, mostly in the same auditorium. So, home crowd, home ref's, comfortable surroundings and largely low-rate, third string, circuit fighters. How would he have done in other's backyards, traveling internationally with ref's who didn't look the other way on his rough stuff? I'm not convinced his career would have been radically different, but I think there would be a good chance for an L or two to be on his record.

"Marciano traveled ONCE to fight outside the eastern US seaboard"

Marciano also traveled to Chicago, and fought twice in Philadelphia, but ten times in NYC.

Of course, remember that the disposition of the population of the US (and also the world was different then). New York City was not only the largest city in the world then, but probably the undisputed boxing capital. Chicago was the second biggest US city. Philadelphia fourth. Actually, as NYC was the world's largest city then, Chicago 8th, and Philly 15th, Marciano fought more fights in the world's 15 or so largest urban centers than the two Klitschko's have together.

And Providence was located directly between NYC and Boston on the heavily populated east coast. I don't think there is any reason to expect Marciano to have a lot of fights somewhere else in the USA, actually. He was fighting where the population and interest in boxing were.

I guess not having a foreign fight is valid enough, but most didn't. I don't think Dempsey or Louis did either, and the few champs who did fought either before or after they were champions. Two reasons--the money was better in the US. And as you pointed out, DQ's were the order of the day in Britain and Europe. Marcel Thil winning fight after fight on questionable fouls probably gave any champion pause about risking a defense for a small potatos purse in Europe.

If Marcel Cerdan did not defend his title in Europe, I don't know if I would score Marciano for the same. Kid Gavilan also fought mainly in the US rather than Cuba, although he did defend once in Havana.

Reason--money, I presume.

and television (and closed circuit) money in Marciano's time was probably restricted mainly to the US.

[edward morbius]

"a bona fide lightheavy in Charles"

So what. This is just the old size thing through the back door. Charles was the heavyweight champion, was taller and had a longer reach than Marciano, and outweighed him in their second bout. Size is not my criteria when going back in history. Charles was as big as many champions, including Cribb, Dempsey, Tunney, etc.

"Walcott--a long, damaging career" "a shot Louis"

Interesting double standard. The 37 yr old Louis and 38 yr old Walcott (and I presume the 38 yr old Moore) supposedly prove Marciano fought in a weak era.

Currently the champions are the soon to be 37 yr old Wlad and the nearly 42 yr old Vitali, and they are not even facing severe challenges from younger men. And, the contenders themselves tend to be old more often than not. Plus when younger Vitali failed in a challenge against the 38 yr old Lewis.

"Wlad and Holy"

Holyfield was the top heavy in the late 1990's and one of the top heavies of the early 2000's. Wlad did not fight him. The excuse can't be that he was too green. He had a pro as long as Marciano when he faced Louis, and had a much better amateur background.

As I posted, for whatever reasons, Wlad did not the face the three best heavies active during his career--Holyfield, Lewis, and Vitali. The reasons for this might be valid, but it is still a fact.

Marciano did face the best of his era and ko'd them.

[Synthetic Decay]

Holy has been shot for most of Wlad's career. It would be a nothing win. It is strange though, Lewis used to get all types of shit, he proceeds to beat shot Holy and Tyson and everyone develops some type of unrequited love for his reign. Lewis was not interested in Wlad at all. So we are left with Vitali, in a sport where you can inflict brain damage on your opponent, i can understand the reticence.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by edward morbius

"a bona fide lightheavy in Charles"

So what. This is just the old size thing through the back door. Charles was the heavyweight champion, was taller and had a longer reach than Marciano, and outweighed him in their second bout. Size is not my criteria when going back in history. Charles was as big as many champions, including Cribb, Dempsey, Tunney, etc.

Are we talking head to head here? Because size (coupled with skill) is very important if we are. I'll concede your point if we are talking legacy. He fought the best around. I just think the best around at that point were better in name than substance, which brings us to...

Originally Posted by edward morbius

"Walcott--a long, damaging career" "a shot Louis"

Interesting double standard. The 37 yr old Louis and 38 yr old Walcott (and I presume the 38 yr old Moore) supposedly prove Marciano fought in a weak era.

Currently the champions are the soon to be 37 yr old Wlad and the nearly 42 yr old Vitali, and they are not even facing severe challenges from younger men. And, the contenders themselves tend to be old more often than not. Plus when younger Vitali failed in a challenge against the 38 yr old Lewis.

We are talking road miles versus highway miles here. Walcott was at the end of a 70 fight career fought under trying circumstances and in which he had been KO'd 6 times by its end. He was barely .500 over his 12 fights previous to Marciano. Charles was 95 fights into a career whose ledger was adorned with Hall of Famers and elite talent. He was on the precipice of a very steep decline after a remarkable run. Louis had no business being in the ring by the time Marciano got to him. He had no right hand and no legs. Marciano faced each of these fresh from hitting practice home runs on the New England circuit against ham and eggers.

As far as Waldo, he is still relatively fresh but near the end. Outside of two of the KO's he has suffered, he stays fairly intact. Still, the end is nearer than most suspect. Vitali should have retired a while ago. He looks like shit.

Originally Posted by edward morbius

Holyfield was the top heavy in the late 1990's and one of the top heavies of the early 2000's. Wlad did not fight him. The excuse can't be that he was too green. He had a pro as long as Marciano when he faced Louis, and had a much better amateur background.

I don't recall anyone, outside of an increasingly unintelligible Holyfield, calling for a Wlad-Holy fight. If I recall correctly, Lewis chose Vitali over Wlad for an opponent. And the Vitali thing, like I stated earlier, I am a bit on the fence about. I understand them not fighting but it is very convenient, also.