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Old 01-18-2013, 12:09 PM   #1
Seamus
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Default Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

Jack Dempsey is given a lot of credit for his incredible run to the title in 1917-1919. Let's have a look see at the numbers behind this run, starting after Dempsey was KO'd by Jim Flynn (who was coming off 5 straight losses) and losing in 4 to fistic artist Willie Meehan. I'm sticking to the blowouts that built his legend and allowed him to compile the 1st round KO stat that is so oft repeated.

Al Norton KO1. Norton had won 1 fight in his last 6.
Miller KO 1. 4 losses in previous 6 fights.
Flynn again. 5 losses in previous 6.
Saddy KO 1. 1 fight veteran.
Riley KO 1. 0-3 record
Ketchell KO2. 0-4 record
Pelkey KO1. Name fighter but had 4 losses in his last 6.
McCarthey KO1. 0-1 record
Porky Flynn KO1. Lost previous 9 fights.
Fulton KO1. A QUALITY WIN. PERHAPS THE BEST OF HIS CAREER.
Moran KO1. 3-6 record, lost previous 3.
Carl Morris KO1. Another name fighter, but one who had lost 4 of his previous 6.
Gunboat Smith KO1. Another name fighter, but one who had not gotten a victory in 8 fights.
McGuire, Hurley and Harris. All KO1. Combined record of 0-2.

Is this really the stuff of legends? Or is this more akin to a Butterbean style barnstorming effort, sprinkled with some cynical matchmaking based on shot "name fighters"?
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Old 01-18-2013, 12:23 PM   #2
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

It's can crushing of the highest degree. Any modern puncher could compile such a record fighting against that level of opposition, they would be ridiculed for it though, that's the difference.

It's akin to knocking out doorman or randoms in a bar.
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:02 PM   #3
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

Is vaunt a usable word, in the singular?
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:15 PM   #4
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

I'd say its pretty bad but doesnt him winning the title fight and defending his title multiple times make up for it

or was Willard a poor champion?

were there contenders out there he should have been facing?

if not should this war time post war time era be considered weak
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:31 PM   #5
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
Jack Dempsey is given a lot of credit for his incredible run to the title in 1917-1919. Let's have a look see at the numbers behind this run, starting after Dempsey was KO'd by Jim Flynn (who was coming off 5 straight losses) and losing in 4 to fistic artist Willie Meehan. I'm sticking to the blowouts that built his legend and allowed him to compile the 1st round KO stat that is so oft repeated.

Al Norton KO1. Norton had won 1 fight in his last 6.
Miller KO 1. 4 losses in previous 6 fights.
Flynn again. 5 losses in previous 6.
Saddy KO 1. 1 fight veteran.
Riley KO 1. 0-3 record
Ketchell KO2. 0-4 record
Pelkey KO1. Name fighter but had 4 losses in his last 6.
McCarthey KO1. 0-1 record
Porky Flynn KO1. Lost previous 9 fights.
Fulton KO1. A QUALITY WIN. PERHAPS THE BEST OF HIS CAREER.
Moran KO1. 3-6 record, lost previous 3.
Carl Morris KO1. Another name fighter, but one who had lost 4 of his previous 6.
Gunboat Smith KO1. Another name fighter, but one who had not gotten a victory in 8 fights.
McGuire, Hurley and Harris. All KO1. Combined record of 0-2.

Is this really the stuff of legends? Or is this more akin to a Butterbean style barnstorming effort, sprinkled with some cynical matchmaking based on shot "name fighters"?
Is this a genuine thread? Or just a biased attempt to yet again cynically denigrate a great champ?

Oh well , at least Jack Johnson' s getting a respite.
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Old 01-18-2013, 02:27 PM   #6
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Is this a genuine thread? Or just a biased attempt to yet again cynically denigrate a great champ?

Oh well , at least Jack Johnson' s getting a respite.
Mc, I agree with your sentiments...Dempsey after hooking up with Jack Kearns, and eating properly, training properly, flattened guys like Carl Morris, Gunboat smith, Battling Levinsky, Billy Miske, Fred Fulton, Jess Willard,
Bill Brennan, Luis Firpo,all top-notchers of his time. Of course he fought ham and eggers in between so he could eat...Every fighter does that to put food on the table and stay in shape...But today's revisionists who for what ever reason abhor Jack Dempsey, unlike any fighter on only ESB, fail to understand that all fighters are products of their times as Jack Dempsey was, but was as hugely regarded in his era, as any other heavyweight that followed in later era's...I, reading about him for many decades, believe what many many great historians, fighters and trainers who saw the prime Dempsey fight, conclude he would have made any heavyweights life miserable
inside a ring, or outside the ring for he was one tough S.O.B. Cheers Mc.
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Old 01-18-2013, 02:27 PM   #7
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Is this a genuine thread? Or just a biased attempt to yet again cynically denigrate a great champ?

Oh well , at least Jack Johnson' s getting a respite.
Mc, I agree with your sentiments...Dempsey after hooking up with Jack Kearns, and eating properly, training properly, flattened guys like Carl Morris, Gunboat smith, Battling Levinsky, Billy Miske, Fred Fulton, Jess Willard,
Bill Brennan, Luis Firpo,all top-notchers of his time. Of course he fought ham and eggers in between so he could eat...Every fighter does that to put food on the table and stay in shape...But today's revisionists who for what ever reason abhor Jack Dempsey, unlike any fighter on only ESB, fail to understand that all fighters are products of their times as Jack Dempsey was, but was as hugely regarded in his era, as any other heavyweight that followed in later era's...I, reading about him for many decades, believe what many many great historians, fighters and trainers who saw the prime Dempsey fight, conclude he would have made any heavyweights life miserable
inside a ring, or outside the ring for he was one tough S.O.B. Cheers Mc.
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Old 01-18-2013, 02:28 PM   #8
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Is this a genuine thread? Or just a biased attempt to yet again cynically denigrate a great champ?

Oh well , at least Jack Johnson' s getting a respite.
Mc, I agree with your sentiments...Dempsey after hooking up with Jack Kearns, and eating properly, training properly, flattened guys like Carl Morris, Gunboat smith, Battling Levinsky, Billy Miske, Fred Fulton, Jess Willard,
Bill Brennan, Luis Firpo,all top-notchers of his time. Of course he fought ham and eggers in between so he could eat...Every fighter does that to put food on the table and stay in shape...But today's revisionists who for what ever reason abhor Jack Dempsey, unlike any fighter on only ESB, fail to understand that all fighters are products of their times as Jack Dempsey was, but was as hugely regarded in his era, as any other heavyweight that followed in later era's...I, reading about him for many decades, believe what many many great historians, fighters and trainers who saw the prime Dempsey fight, conclude he would have made any heavyweights life miserable
inside a ring, or outside the ring for he was one tough S.O.B. Cheers Mc.
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Old 01-18-2013, 02:34 PM   #9
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Is this a genuine thread? Or just a biased attempt to yet again cynically denigrate a great champ?

Oh well , at least Jack Johnson' s getting a respite.
That's an easy dismissal of the information presented.

Would you like to react to it critically instead? It is not as though I fabricated those results or records, nor to my knowledge did I omit any information.
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Old 01-18-2013, 02:45 PM   #10
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
Mc, I agree with your sentiments...Dempsey after hooking up with Jack Kearns, and eating properly, training properly, flattened guys like Carl Morris, Gunboat smith, Battling Levinsky, Billy Miske, Fred Fulton, Jess Willard,
Bill Brennan, Luis Firpo,all top-notchers of his time. Of course he fought ham and eggers in between so he could eat...
Burt, please respond to reality here.

Here are those top-raters when he fought them on the way to the title.

Carl Morris - loser of 6 or his previous 8 when Dempsey "flattened him"
Gunboat Smith - had won 1 of his previous 12 fights. Repeat ONE of his previous TWELVE fights.
Levinksy - lost 2 out of 3 coming in. a decent win over light heavy but a guy who could not hang with Greb... which was proven repeatedly.
Billy Miske - the only time Dempsey "flattened" Miske was after the title run, at a time Miske when was gravely ill (I know he would rebound but he was deathly ill here) and Dempsey still finished him off with an unnecessary foul blow.

I always considered the counter balance to Dempsey's underwhelming title reign to be his rise to challenge the title, his string of early stoppages including some big name fighters. However, upon even cursory examination, it was just a combination of barnstorming and cherry picking some formerly name fighters who were on losing streaks. As far as Willard, he was the guy Dempsey had to fight and he went in and did a great job. I think it's a bit overrated (Willard was old, innactive and over-confident) but it's what Dempsey had to do. Past that, none of his championship defenses overshadow in importance his ducks of Greb and Wills.
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Old 01-18-2013, 02:47 PM   #11
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
That's an easy dismissal of the information presented.

Would you like to react to it critically instead? It is not as though I fabricated those results or records, nor to my knowledge did I omit any information.
Easy dismissal or not he is right though Seamus this thing with you and Dempsey is almost becoming a little bit wierd almost like some deranged obsessive what makes you so fixated on Dempsey all the time? Haha I can imagine you at home with photos of him all over your walls and police storming into you place and finding you on the floor rocking from side to side throwing dart at all the pictures??
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Old 01-18-2013, 02:54 PM   #12
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Originally Posted by RockysSplitNose View Post
Easy dismissal or not he is right though Seamus this thing with you and Dempsey is almost becoming a little bit wierd almost like some deranged obsessive what makes you so fixated on Dempsey all the time? Haha I can imagine you at home with photos of him all over your walls and police storming into you place and finding you on the floor rocking from side to side throwing dart at all the pictures??
Forget me and address the record I present. It's easy to blame the messenger but a total deflection and an de facto endorsement of my argument... that Dempsey's "great run" to the title was little more than barnstorming and cynical matchmaking. It was a rather rote path to the title involving matchmaking and ballyhoo. Nothing wrong with that, but let's not call it sensational.

And in point of fact I actually really like the Dempsey story and persona. But there's enough of a cheerleading section here to require I, also, participate.
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Old 01-18-2013, 02:59 PM   #13
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
Jack Dempsey is given a lot of credit for his incredible run to the title in 1917-1919. Let's have a look see at the numbers behind this run, starting after Dempsey was KO'd by Jim Flynn (who was coming off 5 straight losses) and losing in 4 to fistic artist Willie Meehan. I'm sticking to the blowouts that built his legend and allowed him to compile the 1st round KO stat that is so oft repeated.

Al Norton KO1. Norton had won 1 fight in his last 6.
Miller KO 1. 4 losses in previous 6 fights.
Flynn again. 5 losses in previous 6.
Saddy KO 1. 1 fight veteran.
Riley KO 1. 0-3 record
Ketchell KO2. 0-4 record
Pelkey KO1. Name fighter but had 4 losses in his last 6.
McCarthey KO1. 0-1 record
Porky Flynn KO1. Lost previous 9 fights.
Fulton KO1. A QUALITY WIN. PERHAPS THE BEST OF HIS CAREER.
Moran KO1. 3-6 record, lost previous 3.
Carl Morris KO1. Another name fighter, but one who had lost 4 of his previous 6.
Gunboat Smith KO1. Another name fighter, but one who had not gotten a victory in 8 fights.
McGuire, Hurley and Harris. All KO1. Combined record of 0-2.

Is this really the stuff of legends? Or is this more akin to a Butterbean style barnstorming effort, sprinkled with some cynical matchmaking based on shot "name fighters"?
You're really going to make McVey's day
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:01 PM   #14
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Is this a genuine thread? Or just a biased attempt to yet again cynically denigrate a great champ?

Oh well , at least Jack Johnson' s getting a respite.
Are any of Seamus' facts incorrect? The information he presented is un-biased. You however are not.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:09 PM   #15
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Burt, please respond to reality here.

Here are those top-raters when he fought them on the way to the title.

Carl Morris - loser of 6 or his previous 8 when Dempsey "flattened him"
Gunboat Smith - had won 1 of his previous 12 fights. Repeat ONE of his previous TWELVE fights.
Levinksy - lost 2 out of 3 coming in. a decent win over light heavy but a guy who could not hang with Greb... which was proven repeatedly.
Billy Miske - the only time Dempsey "flattened" Miske was after the title run, at a time Miske when was gravely ill (I know he would rebound but he was deathly ill here) and Dempsey still finished him off with an unnecessary foul blow.

I always considered the counter balance to Dempsey's underwhelming title reign to be his rise to challenge the title, his string of early stoppages including some big name fighters. However, upon even cursory examination, it was just a combination of barnstorming and cherry picking some formerly name fighters who were on losing streaks. As far as Willard, he was the guy Dempsey had to fight and he went in and did a great job. I think it's a bit overrated (Willard was old, innactive and over-confident) but it's what Dempsey had to do. Past that, none of his championship defenses overshadow in importance his ducks of Greb and Wills.
S, worthy adversary, you cite the records of some of Dempsey's opponents.
As I cited before Dempsey beat whoever he fought from 1917 til 1923. Were they the best bunch of HWs that an Ali fought ? No sir. But as I insist, Dempsey when he was at his peak would have risen to any occasion
the situation demanded. He was that "unique" a heavyweight fighter for all the eras...Lithe, strong, savage on the attack with a" kill me or I'll kill you"
attiutude that captured the attention of millions of boxing adherents..,.
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