Dempsey's punching power

[Theron]

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

He did say punch for punch Marciano was a harder puncher than Louis but also said that Curtis Sheppard was the hardest puncher he ever faced. Ezzard Charles rated Marciano the 3rd hardest puncher he ever faced with Curtis Sheppard being number 1 and Elmer Ray number 2.

Yes but Curtis sheppard wasnt a heavy, seems like were rating heavyweight punchers

[Theron]

Liston was a true one punch knockout puncher

[ROACH]

PFP one of the hardest punchers in the history of the game. To be honest, his speed and quickness remind me of Pacquaio.

[Theron]

He was also only 180 pounds for the Willard fight, and Willard had a strong chin

[Absolutely!]

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

Calling him the hardest pucher ever would not be overrating him but would just be plain silly as you cannot compare his power to people of other eras. Yes Quarry didn't say much in regards to Shavers power probably because he barely landed anything and was taken out in 1 round.

"Shavers scoring heavily"

I've just rewatched that fight. Shavers hit Quarry with two full power right hands flush on the chin, one as part of a combo, a number of body shots, a series of hit and hold uppercuts, and a big left that knocked Quarry to the side. In fact he was hitting with enough oomph to prompt Cossel to utter the above quote.

Compare that to Tua vs Ruiz where Tua staggered Ruiz with the very first punch he landed, and ended up knocking him completely unconscious literally a few seconds later.

You absolutely can compare punchers from different eras and Shavers doesn't stack up well to any of the big hitters of the modern era.

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

Tex Cobb, Muhammad Ali, Ken Norton, Ron Lyle, James Tillis and Larry Holmes ALL said he hit the hardest and you can take a peek at each man's record to see some other punchers they faced. Another opponent said he hit harder than both Ron Lyle and George Foreman combined. Shaver's wasn't fast, wasn't skilled, wasn't accurate, didn't have much gas or a good chin, things like setting up a punch and timing your opponent were completely foreign to him, he rarely implemented combinations and he was a horrid finisher these are why he could never KO quality opponents. I mean shit if a whole group of people say he hit the hardest than maybe, just maybe when taking into account common opponents, that the man hit pretty fucking hard.

"Another opponent said he hit harder than both Ron Lyle and George Foreman combined."

Yeah, I don't think you're supposed to take that literally. It was, like a lot of quotes about Shavers, colourful hyperbole.

I'm wondering if you've ever actually seen Shavers fight? I ask because what you describe as his style bears very little resemblance to what I see in front of me. The fighter you describe sounds like Tex Cobb crossed with Butterbean. Shavers for all his faults was a top level professional boxer. No, he wasn't fast, but he wasn't slow either. Not Foreman slow. He wasn't particularly skilled in a boxing sense, but he had enough speed, enough accuracy and enough timing to catch you flush. Didn't throw combinations? He constantly threw combinations. It was his primary method of finishing off opponents. Couldn't set up punches? His favourite method of setting up punches was going to the body with a hard left then coming over the top with the overhand right. Could also throw hard off a pretty decent jab. A horrid finisher? How did he stop his opponents then, because outside of the Ellis fight it certainly wasn't with just one punch.

Tua was a crappy finisher as well with a ton of limitations, but if he hurt you then you were toast. Why? Because the initial shots screwed you up so badly that you were incapable of defending yourself.

Shavers never demonstrated that kind of power with anywhere near the same consistency.

[MadcapMaxie]

Originally Posted by Absolutely!

"Shavers scoring heavily"

I've just rewatched that fight. Shavers hit Quarry with two full power right hands flush on the chin, one as part of a combo, a number of body shots, a series of hit and hold uppercuts, and a big left that knocked Quarry to the side. In fact he was hitting with enough oomph to prompt Cossel to utter the above quote.

Compare that to Tua vs Ruiz where Tua staggered Ruiz with the very first punch he landed, and ended up knocking him completely unconscious literally a few seconds later.

You absolutely can compare punchers from different eras and Shavers doesn't stack up well to any of the big hitters of the modern era.




"Another opponent said he hit harder than both Ron Lyle and George Foreman combined."

Yeah, I don't think you're supposed to take that literally. It was, like a lot of quotes about Shavers, colourful hyperbole.

I'm wondering if you've ever actually seen Shavers fight? I ask because what you describe as his style bears very little resemblance to what I see in front of me. The fighter you describe sounds like Tex Cobb crossed with Butterbean. Shavers for all his faults was a top level professional boxer. No, he wasn't fast, but he wasn't slow either. Not Foreman slow. He wasn't particularly skilled in a boxing sense, but he had enough speed, enough accuracy and enough timing to catch you flush. Didn't throw combinations? He constantly threw combinations. It was his primary method of finishing off opponents. Couldn't set up punches? His favourite method of setting up punches was going to the body with a hard left then coming over the top with the overhand right. Could also throw hard off a pretty decent jab. A horrid finisher? How did he stop his opponents then, because outside of the Ellis fight it certainly wasn't with just one punch.

Tua was a crappy finisher as well with a ton of limitations, but if he hurt you then you were toast. Why? Because the initial shots screwed you up so badly that you were incapable of defending yourself.

Shavers never demonstrated that kind of power with anywhere near the same consistency.

Originally Posted by Absolutely!

"Shavers scoring heavily"

I've just rewatched that fight. Shavers hit Quarry with two full power right hands flush on the chin, one as part of a combo, a number of body shots, a series of hit and hold uppercuts, and a big left that knocked Quarry to the side. In fact he was hitting with enough oomph to prompt Cossel to utter the above quote.

Compare that to Tua vs Ruiz where Tua staggered Ruiz with the very first punch he landed, and ended up knocking him completely unconscious literally a few seconds later.

You absolutely can compare punchers from different eras and Shavers doesn't stack up well to any of the big hitters of the modern era.

I just rewatched the Quarry fight and didn't see Shavers land any flush rights, although he seemingly did land a good one before Dunphy (not Cossell) announces "Shavers scoring heavily" but if you watch the footage closely you see the punch rolls off Quarry left shoulder and he turned away from it. This would take off alot of steam and in fact im not even sure the punch landed. You can see immediatley after he tries another 1-2 but gets caught first with a Quarry counter right. (0:52-0:55)





(Here's hoping I embedded the video correctly)

The seemingly best punch Shavers landed was a wild left hand after Quarry already stunned him and it seemed to be the best punch because he actually hits Quarry's right hand as he throws it (at 1:37) making it look like it stunned Quarry when it didn't even land on his head.

Also how could on possibly compare the power of someone who fought 40 years ago to someone who is fighting today? Please Explain.

Originally Posted by Absolutely!

"Another opponent said he hit harder than both Ron Lyle and George Foreman combined."

Yeah, I don't think you're supposed to take that literally. It was, like a lot of quotes about Shavers, colourful hyperbole.

I'm wondering if you've ever actually seen Shavers fight? I ask because what you describe as his style bears very little resemblance to what I see in front of me. The fighter you describe sounds like Tex Cobb crossed with Butterbean. Shavers for all his faults was a top level professional boxer. No, he wasn't fast, but he wasn't slow either. Not Foreman slow. He wasn't particularly skilled in a boxing sense, but he had enough speed, enough accuracy and enough timing to catch you flush. Didn't throw combinations? He constantly threw combinations. It was his primary method of finishing off opponents. Couldn't set up punches? His favourite method of setting up punches was going to the body with a hard left then coming over the top with the overhand right. Could also throw hard off a pretty decent jab. A horrid finisher? How did he stop his opponents then, because outside of the Ellis fight it certainly wasn't with just one punch.

Tua was a crappy finisher as well with a ton of limitations, but if he hurt you then you were toast. Why? Because the initial shots screwed you up so badly that you were incapable of defending yourself.

Shavers never demonstrated that kind of power with anywhere near the same consistency.

Maybe it's hyperbole because the man, infact, hits incredibly hard? I've heard alot of people use similiar hyperbole when talking about the power of punches. Someone (forgot who) said that his opponent hit him so hard it made him question his existence.

Also yes I've seen Shavers fight, every fight that's avaliable on youtube. He does possess certain qualities but they arn't things one would say in regards to him, nobody says Shavers is a good combination puncher or that he's fast or that he's skilled. It's not like Marciano throws punches as if he was in molassess yet people call him slow. Shaver's modus operendi was simply to land his right, more specifically his looping overhand right. His style of fighting was solely dependant on hitting that right hand home which landed on the sweet spot very rarely. Also yes Shaver's has to be one of the worst finishers ever, bar his stoppage of Norton, he could never take out top tier fighters once hurt this is not due to his POWER but due to his lack of skill. Had Ali hurt couldnt finish the deal, had Lyle down and hurt couldn't finish the deal, had Holmes down and hurt couldnt finish the deal, had Bugner down and hurt couldnt finish the deal etc. Bad finisher in my books.

[Unforgiven]

All joking aside, Dempsey hit like a ton of bricks.
Brutal bone-jarring power.

[MagnaNasakki]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

All joking aside, Dempsey hit like a ton of bricks.
Brutal bone-jarring power.

Pretty much, yeah.

It was his identity. For how crude he was, it didn't matter: He packed animal aggression and quickness with the ability to utterly separate you from your senses. You pretty much had to pull of a Gene Tunney to beat him, and I say good luck, cause I wouldn't want to chance it.

[RockysSplitNose]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

Pretty much, yeah.

It was his identity. For how crude he was, it didn't matter: He packed animal aggression and quickness with the ability to utterly separate you from your senses. You pretty much had to pull of a Gene Tunney to beat him, and I say good luck, cause I wouldn't want to chance it.

Hadn't seen any posts from you in a while - if you've been away welcome back to one of the better posters on here good to see you back mate - where do you reckon he might come potentially amongst the bombers you've been in with by the way??

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

Pretty much, yeah.

It was his identity. For how crude he was, it didn't matter: He packed animal aggression and quickness with the ability to utterly separate you from your senses. You pretty much had to pull of a Gene Tunney to beat him, and I say good luck, cause I wouldn't want to chance it.

MN,I agree with you that Dempsey had "animal Aggression " similar to a later smaller Roberto Duran..Jack Sharkey always contended that "wherever dempsey hit you it hurt ". He was as Nat Fleischer described Dempsey,
"amazingly strong". He had a trademark gesture when he kod a man, Dempsey would help his victim to his feet by picking up the guy by putting his hands under the guys arms and hauling him up off the floor...
I really don't think Dempsey was crude as he bobbed and weaved his way into an opponent with his chin tucked in his shoulders,making Dempsey a difficult target to reach his chin as Gene Tunney claimed in his 2 bouts with the old fading Dempsey. In the Firpo fight Dempsey didn't bob his way in and rushed Firpo, lost his balance and was nailed with a clublike right
swing on Dempsey's noggin and dazing Jack...Today Dempsey is not given the credit by some posters that he deserved...P4P there was no more
violent and destructive hitter...

[Theron]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

P4P there was no more
violent and destructive hitter...

[HOUDINI]

Fleischer rated Dempsey as the "roughest" of all past champions and also credited him with the most destructive combination.....right to the heart and left hook to the chin. Ray Arcel one of boxings all time great trainers stated Dempsey was "mean, determined and vicious" and rated Dempsey right up there with Louis as one of the very best. Interestingly Arcel was the last great trainer in boxing to know and see Dempsey from ringside he felt that Roberto Duran was "the closest thing he ever saw to Jack Dempsey". So there you have boxings greatest writer and one of boxings greatest trainers BOTH of which saw Dempsey fight from ringside and they both rate him as one of the very best all time. I can make a list of great trainers from that time period who had the luxury of actually watching Dempsey live who say the same thing. These were not incompetent people...they were the very best at what they did and they all spoke very highly of Dempsey. Arcel especially always choose his words very carefully and more so he was an expert in determining what made a fighter a great fighter.

[prime]

Dempsey's one-punch flooring of the 2013-sized, iron-chinned heavyweight champion is all the proof I need on the reality of the Mauler.

By the way, George Foreman was no ten-count monster.

Rocky Marciano was no ten-count monster, either.

Mike Tyson and Joe Louis were true 10-count knockout artists.

[Absolutely!]

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

I just rewatched the Quarry fight and didn't see Shavers land any flush rights, although he seemingly did land a good one before Dunphy (not Cossell) announces "Shavers scoring heavily" but if you watch the footage closely you see the punch rolls off Quarry left shoulder and he turned away from it. This would take off alot of steam and in fact im not even sure the punch landed. You can see immediatley after he tries another 1-2 but gets caught first with a Quarry counter right. (0:52-0:55)

Quarry gets hit by hard rights at 0.34 and 0.53, the second of which drew a loud response from the crowd. And no, it didn't roll off his shoulder, it hit him on the chin, the same as the uppercut just before. He did manage to slightly roll with it, I agree, but there was definite contact, enough to have hurt were Shavers a bigger puncher than he was.

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

The seemingly best punch Shavers landed was a wild left hand after Quarry already stunned him and it seemed to be the best punch because he actually hits Quarry's right hand as he throws it (at 1:37) making it look like it stunned Quarry when it didn't even land on his head.

Also how could on possibly compare the power of someone who fought 40 years ago to someone who is fighting today? Please Explain.

By watching them fight, studying the nature of their knockouts and taking into account the size and toughness of their opposition. Shavers was a fighter who could put them down but not out, and needed to resort to battering his opponents to head and body in order to finish the job, even against relatively small or fragile opposition. Tua in comparison hurt and stopped nearly everyone whom he was able to land flush on, and knocked several fighters completely unconscious with a very small number of punches. Wlad and Lennox have several one punch knockouts against rated opposition. In Wlad's case he knocked one fighter (Chambers) completely unconscious with a glancing left without any real setup. Tyson knocked Botha out with a single right hand after trailing badly on the cards, knocked out Etienne, knocked out Holmes (the only man to do so), smashed up Golota's skull and spine with a single punch etc. Shavers's best demonstration of power was against Jimmy Ellis with a punch which was technically illegal. That knockout alone doesn't anywhere near justify his reputation however.

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

Maybe it's hyperbole because the man, infact, hits incredibly hard? I've heard alot of people use similiar hyperbole when talking about the power of punches. Someone (forgot who) said that his opponent hit him so hard it made him question his existence.

I don't doubt that Shavers hit hard, but calling him the hardest puncher of all time is hyperbole.

Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie

Also yes I've seen Shavers fight, every fight that's avaliable on youtube. He does possess certain qualities but they arn't things one would say in regards to him, nobody says Shavers is a good combination puncher or that he's fast or that he's skilled. It's not like Marciano throws punches as if he was in molassess yet people call him slow. Shaver's modus operendi was simply to land his right, more specifically his looping overhand right. His style of fighting was solely dependant on hitting that right hand home which landed on the sweet spot very rarely. Also yes Shaver's has to be one of the worst finishers ever, bar his stoppage of Norton, he could never take out top tier fighters once hurt this is not due to his POWER but due to his lack of skill. Had Ali hurt couldnt finish the deal, had Lyle down and hurt couldn't finish the deal, had Holmes down and hurt couldnt finish the deal, had Bugner down and hurt couldnt finish the deal etc. Bad finisher in my books.

Shavers's right was his money punch, but it wasn't like he just threw it out of leftfield every time. He knew how to set it up, mainly with bodyshots and uppercuts, and he understood the value of going downstairs to open a defensive opponent up if he got them pinned against the ropes. Sounds like a decent finisher to me. I also strongly disagree that he was slow. If he was, he would have never landed on some of the opponents he fought, with the flushness that he did.

Shavers was a puncher in the vein of Hasim Rahman, in my books, hurtful and heavy handed, but not a truly top level puncher. Incidentally, check out the right Shavers landed against Holmes with the right Rahman landed against Lewis. Almost identical shots.

[Theron]

If Shavers would throw his right to the opponents body alooot more he would have done much better in my opinion