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Old 01-18-2013, 06:32 PM   #61
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Default Re: Brutal Dempsey sparring Knockout in slow motion

This is a basic physics problem. It's not that hard to understand. The extra padding literally results in the force being transferred more slowly and over a greater distance and area. To knock someone out, you need to accelerate their head past a certain limit. The extra padding results in a lower acceleration of the head.

Imagine running into a brick wall and running into a padded wall. The force transfer of your body into the wall will be the same. The difference is basically in how fast your body comes to a stop (decelerates). Against the brick wall the force transfer occurs almost instantly, which results in damage to the tissues, bones, etc. The padded wall results in a slower stop as the padding literally squishes in, which results in less damage.
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:35 PM   #62
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Default Re: Brutal Dempsey sparring Knockout in slow motion

Also, the idea that more padded gloves would protect the fist but not the opponent is just absolutely ridiculous. If you admit that the extra padding protects the fist, you are also de facto admitting that it also protects the opponent, because the same principles are at work here.
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:42 PM   #63
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Default Re: Brutal Dempsey sparring Knockout in slow motion

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Originally Posted by rusak View Post
This is a basic physics problem. It's not that hard to understand. The extra padding literally results in the force being transferred more slowly and over a greater distance and area. To knock someone out, you need to accelerate their head past a certain limit. The extra padding results in a lower acceleration of the head.

Imagine running into a brick wall and running into a padded wall. The force transfer of your body into the wall will be the same. The difference is basically in how fast your body comes to a stop (decelerates). Against the brick wall the force transfer occurs almost instantly, which results in damage to the tissues, bones, etc. The padded wall results in a slower stop as the padding literally squishes in, which results in less damage.
The limiting factor, is what you can do without breaking your hand.

In the bareknuckle period, few punches were thrown, and half the fight was avoiding a broken hand.

You would be able to hit a padded wall with much more force than a brick wall, without hurting yourself.

There is a reason why early knockouts were virtualy unknown in the bareknuckle era.
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Old 01-18-2013, 06:45 PM   #64
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Default Re: Brutal Dempsey sparring Knockout in slow motion

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Also, the idea that more padded gloves would protect the fist but not the opponent is just absolutely ridiculous. If you admit that the extra padding protects the fist, you are also de facto admitting that it also protects the opponent, because the same principles are at work here.

Waits for Harry Houdini to come in and explain this magic to us all.
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:00 PM   #65
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Default Re: Brutal Dempsey sparring Knockout in slow motion

Ray Mercer talking about the difference between 4 ounce and 10 ounce gloves:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:04 PM   #66
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Default Re: Brutal Dempsey sparring Knockout in slow motion

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The limiting factor, is what you can do without breaking your hand.

In the bareknuckle period, few punches were thrown, and half the fight was avoiding a broken hand.

You would be able to hit a padded wall with much more force than a brick wall, without hurting yourself.

There is a reason why early knockouts were virtualy unknown in the bareknuckle era.

We are not comparing the bareknuckle era.
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:07 PM   #67
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Default Re: Brutal Dempsey sparring Knockout in slow motion

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We are not comparing the bareknuckle era.
No, but you have to ask why guys wern't just getting destroyed in the bareknuckle era.

The gloves are basicaly an added weapon.
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:08 PM   #68
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Default Re: Brutal Dempsey sparring Knockout in slow motion

My keyboard is so ****ed it took me about five minutes to write this one line, so I'm afraid I won't be able to follow up my assertion:

Gloves knock people out more efficiently up to a certain size. There is a happy physical medium which allows this to be true even if the rule says; the bigger the glove (and more padding), the less cerebral damage.

Seriously. Hit yourself on the jaw with and without gloves if you don't believe me. One will hurt and daze, the other will hurt much, much less but daze more.

It is to do with mass plus area of contact, and more mildly, a springy effect of the glove, which outweigh a decrease in hardness and velocity since concussion is based around the head being jolted or propelled and the brain bashing the insides of the skull.

Obviously a certain size glove will yield diminishing returns and you will end up pushing the skull with little velocity, just as a tiny fist with little mass will cause superficial damage and not as much concussion.

Janitor's point is outside the raw physics of it but still a valid and applicable observation.
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:09 PM   #69
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Default Re: Brutal Dempsey sparring Knockout in slow motion

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No, but you have to ask why guys wern't just getting destroyed in the bareknuckle era.

The gloves are basicaly an added weapon.

Of course, but it speaks for itself. Nobody is debating the fact that gloves facilitate greater damage.
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:14 PM   #70
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Default Re: Brutal Dempsey sparring Knockout in slow motion

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Also, the idea that more padded gloves would protect the fist but not the opponent is just absolutely ridiculous. If you admit that the extra padding protects the fist, you are also de facto admitting that it also protects the opponent, because the same principles are at work here.
There are two sides to the argument.

If you are going to downgrade the old timers power based on the gloves, then you have to upgrade their chins to the same extent.

If they were all feather fisted but the gloves made them into killers, then they all had iron chins, because they took shots with those gloves!
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:22 PM   #71
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Default Re: Brutal Dempsey sparring Knockout in slow motion

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There are two sides to the argument.

If you are going to downgrade the old timers power based on the gloves, then you have to upgrade their chins to the same extent.

If they were all feather fisted but the gloves made them into killers, then they all had iron chins, because they took shots with those gloves!

I think that is the case for the top level fighters. Somewhere in the middle of what you said anyway I don't think anyone was suggesting that they were feather fisted, just that there is a difference due to the gloves used and that it is seldom mentioned.
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:24 PM   #72
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Default Re: Brutal Dempsey sparring Knockout in slow motion

What part of physics come into play when Dempsey is rawdogging this poor welterweight from behind while him a right hook reacharound?
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:28 PM   #73
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Default Re: Brutal Dempsey sparring Knockout in slow motion

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I think that is the case for the top level fighters. Somewhere in the middle of what you said anyway I don't think anyone was suggesting that they were feather fisted, just that there is a difference due to the gloves used and that it is seldom mentioned.
I do not think that anybody said that they were feather fisted, I am just pointing out that the argument cuts both ways.

I don't see Rusak arguing that every fighter of that era had a better chin than previously thought!
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:28 PM   #74
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Default Re: Brutal Dempsey sparring Knockout in slow motion

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Originally Posted by janitor View Post
There are two sides to the argument.

If you are going to downgrade the old timers power based on the gloves, then you have to upgrade their chins to the same extent.

If they were all feather fisted but the gloves made them into killers, then they all had iron chins, because they took shots with those gloves!
I can agree with that, many of these guys could take a beating. In the case of Dempsey, his opposition was so bad that we don't know how good Dempsey's chin really was.
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:41 PM   #75
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Default Re: Brutal Dempsey sparring Knockout in slow motion

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I can agree with that, many of these guys could take a beating. In the case of Dempsey, his opposition was so bad that we don't know how good Dempsey's chin really was.
His opposition was so bad?

At the very least, they were the top contenders and hardest hitters, on the planet.

At the very least they outweighed him by 30 lbs, which is something thatyou seem to value.

So please be consistent in your argument.

If size is such a crucial factor, and the smaller gloves make such a difference, then give credit to Dempsey's chin without trying to make cheap excuses!
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