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Old 01-18-2013, 03:15 PM   #16
Seamus
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
S, worthy adversary, you cite the records of some of Dempsey's opponents.
As I cited before Dempsey beat whoever he fought from 1917 til 1923. Were they the best bunch of HWs that an Ali fought ? No sir. But as I insist, Dempsey when he was at his peak would have risen to any occasion
the situation demanded. He was that "unique" a heavyweight fighter for all the eras...Lithe, strong, savage on the attack with a" kill me or I'll kill you"
attiutude that captured the attention of millions of boxing adherents..,.
I, also, think that Dempsey's ceiling was never discovered due to his rather lackadaisical attitude toward the championship and his conservative braintrust. I think he beats Wills. I think he has a good, not great chance, to beat Greb if it goes 15. But what I think he "could have done" in no way qualifies to boost his legacy.

Oh well, if nothing else, that vaunted string of wins from 1917-19 does well to illustrate the difference between that and later eras.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:24 PM   #17
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

I saw vaunted run.. as was instantly perplexed..

IMO Dempsey was the biggest beneficiary of the Romanticsm era and it's carried through till today. His run was great.. his level of opposition wasn't great.. yet he was still viewed as the best ever. As I relayed one time.. I used to love hearing my grandfather go on and on about how great dempsey was. How him and the family would gather around the radio and listen to his fights... Guess what.. my grandfather was blind and never actually w him fight. I believe many suffered from the same sensationalized writing of the day and took it to heart. If you believed all that was written in the newspapers you would think dempsey could single handily win the war against Germany using only his fists..
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:25 PM   #18
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

How do you evaluate Johnson run to the title and how do you see a fight between them going Big S
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:25 PM   #19
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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That's an easy dismissal of the information presented.

Would you like to react to it critically instead? It is not as though I fabricated those results or records, nor to my knowledge did I omit any information.
Not really, it would be an exercise in futility.


You go ahead ,fill your boots my son.

ps .I notice your penchant for piss-taking does not apply when directed at yourself.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:26 PM   #20
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Jack Dempsey is given a lot of credit for his incredible run to the title in 1917-1919. Let's have a look see at the numbers behind this run, starting after Dempsey was KO'd by Jim Flynn (who was coming off 5 straight losses) and losing in 4 to fistic artist Willie Meehan. I'm sticking to the blowouts that built his legend and allowed him to compile the 1st round KO stat that is so oft repeated.

Al Norton KO1. Norton had won 1 fight in his last 6.
Miller KO 1. 4 losses in previous 6 fights.
Flynn again. 5 losses in previous 6.
Saddy KO 1. 1 fight veteran.
Riley KO 1. 0-3 record
Ketchell KO2. 0-4 record
Pelkey KO1. Name fighter but had 4 losses in his last 6.
McCarthey KO1. 0-1 record
Porky Flynn KO1. Lost previous 9 fights.
Fulton KO1. A QUALITY WIN. PERHAPS THE BEST OF HIS CAREER.
Moran KO1. 3-6 record, lost previous 3.
Carl Morris KO1. Another name fighter, but one who had lost 4 of his previous 6.
Gunboat Smith KO1. Another name fighter, but one who had not gotten a victory in 8 fights.
McGuire, Hurley and Harris. All KO1. Combined record of 0-2.

Is this really the stuff of legends? Or is this more akin to a Butterbean style barnstorming effort, sprinkled with some cynical matchmaking based on shot "name fighters"?
Norton is a big name to have on ones resume!
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:30 PM   #21
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Not really, it would be an exercise in futility.


You go ahead ,fill your boots my son.

ps .I notice your penchant for piss-taking does not apply when directed at yourself.
From you, piss on me all you want.

I actually respect what you have to say and would like to have your thoughts on this. It's not so much an indictment of Dempsey but a comment on the era and the fabrication of champions... a process that was repeated afterward.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:53 PM   #22
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

I find it interesting how it is generally accepted that modern fighters records are to be scrutinized and criticized at every possible opportunity, but fighters of past eras should be immune to criticism and their records are to be left alone. This is especially the case if the past fighter has 'legendary' status, deserved or not.

I don't have time to look closely, and put it in a historical context, but I don't see why anyone should be immune to criticism. People are too defensive about their favorite fighters, that much I know.
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:20 PM   #23
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

Sam Langford told the Atlanta Consitution newspaper on June 2,1922.."If Dempsey fights Harry Wills,...my money will be on Dempsey...he's the best fighter I've ever seen...he hits harder then Jefferies...and he's just as fast as Corbett"...
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:28 PM   #24
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Sam Langford told the Atlanta Consitution newspaper on June 2,1922.."If Dempsey fights Harry Wills,...my money will be on Dempsey...he's the best fighter I've ever seen...he hits harder then Jefferies...and he's just as fast as Corbett"...
Where did Langford see Dempsey fight to reach these conclusions? How in the hell would he know if Dempsey hit harder than Jeffries?
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:30 PM   #25
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Originally Posted by RockyJim View Post
Sam Langford told the Atlanta Consitution newspaper on June 2,1922.."If Dempsey fights Harry Wills,...my money will be on Dempsey...he's the best fighter I've ever seen...he hits harder then Jefferies...and he's just as fast as Corbett"...
Demspey had no desire go get in the same state as Langford let alone Wills or Greb.
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:42 PM   #26
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Originally Posted by RockyJim View Post
Sam Langford told the Atlanta Consitution newspaper on June 2,1922.."If Dempsey fights Harry Wills,...my money will be on Dempsey...he's the best fighter I've ever seen...he hits harder then Jefferies...and he's just as fast as Corbett"...


Pray tell what this has to do with Dempsey's level of opposition?
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:54 PM   #27
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
S, worthy adversary, you cite the records of some of Dempsey's opponents.
As I cited before Dempsey beat whoever he fought from 1917 til 1923. Were they the best bunch of HWs that an Ali fought ? No sir. But as I insist, Dempsey when he was at his peak would have risen to any occasion
the situation demanded. He was that "unique" a heavyweight fighter for all the eras...Lithe, strong, savage on the attack with a" kill me or I'll kill you"
attiutude that captured the attention of millions of boxing adherents..,.
i agree with your assessment Burt but we have to be careful not to assume fighters would've risen to an occasion or beaten others. it's who Dempsey actually beat that matters. Dempsey had great skills but it's hard to argue that he had a great resume in an all time sense
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Old 01-18-2013, 08:48 PM   #28
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post
i agree with your assessment Burt but we have to be careful not to assume fighters would've risen to an occasion or beaten others. it's who Dempsey actually beat that matters. Dempsey had great skills but it's hard to argue that he had a great resume in an all time sense
N, I repeatedly have posted that in my opinion Ali had the toughest contenders in his title reign as a whole...But in the course of human history a man transcends his peers for whatever reason unknown to us and would be more than successful in any era...A Caruso in tenors, a Babe Ruth in baseball, a Frank Gotch in wrestling etc. And I believe that a prime Jack Dempsey had special qualities in one package that would make him very very difficult to beat in any era of boxing . I base this evaluation on what contemporaries who saw Dempsey and fighters of later generations, and called him the best heavyweight they had seen, and my seeing certain
offensive qualities in his few bouts on film that have impressed me enough to try to defend his legacy from some posters who try to degrade his
abilities greatly...Furthermore to try to explain myself better i will use my favorite Heavyweight Joe Louis in this analogy...I believe Ali had better opposition than Louis during their title reigns, but I believe strongly that a prime Louis, beats any version of Clay/Ali ,both at their bests, THOUGH
Ali fought a tougher group of heavyweights in the whole...
And I say Jack Dempsey was equipped with everything required to make hell for any heavyweight in history, and I am on the side with a Sam Langford, Gene Tunney, Mickey Walker, Max Schmeling, Jack Sharkey,
Archie Moore, Ray Arcel, Nat Fleischer, and others who extolled the
fighting ability of the Manassa Mauler...He was THAT good, though he didnt
meet the best overall opposition......But at the age of 32 ,old and rusty , Dempsey [probably kod Gene Tunney in the "long count", and perservered to ko a young prime Jack Sharkey in 1927...For an old creaky Dempsey, it shows what he must have been in his zenith...Cheers...
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:10 PM   #29
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Burt, please respond to reality here.

Here are those top-raters when he fought them on the way to the title.
Oh i didnt know that we were only supposed to rate fighters on their wins before getting the title... Woops better re think my rankings now
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:13 PM   #30
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

If any modern fighter had that type of record they would be laughed out of town, the double standards on here are laughable.

Objectivity. It would be nice to see some.
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