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Old 01-18-2013, 09:54 PM   #31
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Originally Posted by Synthetic Decay View Post
If any modern fighter had that type of record they would be laughed out of town, the double standards on here are laughable.

Objectivity. It would be nice to see some.
What the Hell Dempsey isnt a modern fighter obviously why are you comparing him out of his era with one thats almost 100 years different from his own one, obviously if you transport somebody so far our of their own era things are going to be different and there will be different standards

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Old 01-18-2013, 10:50 PM   #32
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Originally Posted by Synthetic Decay View Post
If any modern fighter had that type of record they would be laughed out of town, the double standards on here are laughable.

Objectivity. It would be nice to see some.
Yup. At least someone gets the point.
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:53 PM   #33
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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What the Hell Dempsey isnt a modern fighter obviously why are you comparing him out of his era with one thats almost 100 years different from his own one, obviously if you transport somebody so far our of their own era things are going to be different and there will be different standards
There remains the issue of him actually facing virile, winning, relevant contenders on his way up, outside of Fulton. It was kind of a sham. No, it was an absolute sham.
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Old 01-18-2013, 11:21 PM   #34
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Originally Posted by Synthetic Decay View Post
If any modern fighter had that type of record they would be laughed out of town, the double standards on here are laughable.

Objectivity. It would be nice to see some.
Laughed out of town, two or three wins against any sort of opposition will get any modern name fighter a title shot. Look what a win over a shot tyson did for Danny williams. Golota wins one or two fights and he gets another title shot. How is a modern fighter laughed at with this sort of record? Not that many if any can string together so many KO1s nowadays (against any sort of opposition).
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Old 01-19-2013, 05:45 AM   #35
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Laughed out of town, two or three wins against any sort of opposition will get any modern name fighter a title shot. Look what a win over a shot tyson did for Danny williams. Golota wins one or two fights and he gets another title shot. How is a modern fighter laughed at with this sort of record? Not that many if any can string together so many KO1s nowadays (against any sort of opposition).
EXACTLY - how many chhamps had incredible opposition on the way up - you can pull apart anyone's pre-title opposition - example: we al know how great a fighter Muhammad Ali was right?? Well just as an example, check

Hunsaker was 1-1-8 in last 10

Siler had had only 2 fights and had been stopped already

Esperti had lost his last 3 (2 by KO) and over next 3 years he would lose 10 more and be KO'd 6 more times

Slim Jim was 158lbs vet of 3 fights (2 of which he lost) and came into fight with a broken nose!! - he would go on to establish a stellar 8-25 (ko by 16) record

Fleeman lost 5 of previous 7 and had been ko'd 5 months before

Clark had lost 2 of his last 3

Sabedong had lost 10 of his previous 15

Johnson had lost 6 of his last 8

Miteff had lost 5 of last 7

Besmanoff had won only 2 of his previous 13 and had been stopped back to back in previous 5 months - and would win only 1 of his next 4

Warner had won only 2 of his last 8

Logan was 3-3 in last 6

Moore was 50

Even Doug Jones had only won 2 of his last 6 and he gave Clay one of his toughest pre-title tests

And Henry Cooper had already been KO'd by Johannson and Folley at world level.

Then suddenly after just 19 fights Clay gets his title shot - and these were fights for someone with an unbeaten record, already an Olympic Gold Medalist , already famous across America, who was already super confident and who already knew just how good he was.

By comparison Dempsey toiled in obscurity with no amateur pedigree to speak of, no idea really how good he was, just facing whoever more often than not not knowing much about the opponent, no millionaire group behind him, no Olympic medal, sometimes over matched often outweighed to the point of entering into what would be deemed catchweight bouts, often with little preparation - Clay was already a millionaire - oh and of those oppoents i listed maybe 6 were black incase the usual race card is played - Dempsey amongst others faced 4 that we know of - Emmanuel Campbell, Boston Bearcat, George Christian, John Lester Johnson - and Dempsey had to go through 73 fights before he got a shot!! Ali didn't even fight 73 fights in his whole career!!?? And those are the fights we know about - estimates put the true figure probably over the hundred mark!!?? and that was by the time he was 24??

I would add also that Clay was never over matched once prior to winning the title and in my opinion the only decent ish form fighters were Henry Cooper and Sonny banks - interestingly the two men who put him on the deck first - weighed against Dempsey fighting amongst others comparative good level opponents for him at that stage in the likes of Anderson, Bert Kenny, Flynn, Meehan, Gunboat, Morris, Brennan, Miske, Pelkey, Fulton, Levinsky etc outweigh greatly anything Clay faced on the way up - these were all seasoned name fighter with bags of experience and reputations of their own

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Old 01-19-2013, 07:58 AM   #36
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Originally Posted by RockysSplitNose View Post
EXACTLY - how many chhamps had incredible opposition on the way up - you can pull apart anyone's pre-title opposition - example: we al know how great a fighter Muhammad Ali was right?? Well just as an example, check

Hunsaker was 1-1-8 in last 10

Siler had had only 2 fights and had been stopped already

Esperti had lost his last 3 (2 by KO) and over next 3 years he would lose 10 more and be KO'd 6 more times

Slim Jim was 158lbs vet of 3 fights (2 of which he lost) and came into fight with a broken nose!! - he would go on to establish a stellar 8-25 (ko by 16) record

Fleeman lost 5 of previous 7 and had been ko'd 5 months before

Clark had lost 2 of his last 3

Sabedong had lost 10 of his previous 15

Johnson had lost 6 of his last 8

Miteff had lost 5 of last 7

Besmanoff had won only 2 of his previous 13 and had been stopped back to back in previous 5 months - and would win only 1 of his next 4

Warner had won only 2 of his last 8

Logan was 3-3 in last 6

Moore was 50

Even Doug Jones had only won 2 of his last 6 and he gave Clay one of his toughest pre-title tests

And Henry Cooper had already been KO'd by Johannson and Folley at world level.

Then suddenly after just 19 fights Clay gets his title shot - and these were fights for someone with an unbeaten record, already an Olympic Gold Medalist , already famous across America, who was already super confident and who already knew just how good he was.

By comparison Dempsey toiled in obscurity with no amateur pedigree to speak of, no idea really how good he was, just facing whoever more often than not not knowing much about the opponent, no millionaire group behind him, no Olympic medal, sometimes over matched often outweighed to the point of entering into what would be deemed catchweight bouts, often with little preparation - Clay was already a millionaire - oh and of those oppoents i listed maybe 6 were black incase the usual race card is played - Dempsey amongst others faced 4 that we know of - Emmanuel Campbell, Boston Bearcat, George Christian, John Lester Johnson - and Dempsey had to go through 73 fights before he got a shot!! Ali didn't even fight 73 fights in his whole career!!?? And those are the fights we know about - estimates put the true figure probably over the hundred mark!!?? and that was by the time he was 24??

I would add also that Clay was never over matched once prior to winning the title and in my opinion the only decent ish form fighters were Henry Cooper and Sonny banks - interestingly the two men who put him on the deck first - weighed against Dempsey fighting amongst others comparative good level opponents for him at that stage in the likes of Anderson, Bert Kenny, Flynn, Meehan, Gunboat, Morris, Brennan, Miske, Pelkey, Fulton, Levinsky etc outweigh greatly anything Clay faced on the way up - these were all seasoned name fighter with bags of experience and reputations of their own
Rocky, KUDOS for you. With the truth you have shattered the haters
of Jack Dempsey whether they know it or not...They will do anything to tarnish the image of Dempsey who had it so damn tough coming up in those meaner rougher times...Ali and others of Clay's time had a picnic in comparison
with his amateur days, under the guidance of the AAU compared to a Dempsey riding the undercarriage of railroad trains, holding on for dear life
to avoid being thrown off so he can get to his next town to fight for his grub...A hell of a tougher life than todays naysayers have...R, you have done yourself proud defending a good man young, Jack Dempsey.
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Old 01-19-2013, 07:59 AM   #37
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

My point with the above post btw was not so much to denigrate Ali's per-title run as undeserving, but more so to illustrate that it didn't in any way influence how great a fighter he was - we all know how great a fighter Ali was and he still that great whether he had of fought another couple of big name fighters on the way up or not - point being Dempsey fought who he fought in those days - to use this as an indication that he wasn't all that is just clutching at straws really - like Ali he was one of the greatest champs we've ever had whether he fought the guys he fought he fought or whether you added a Sam Langford or a white Harry or a black Harry to resume or not
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Old 01-19-2013, 08:01 AM   #38
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Originally Posted by Synthetic Decay View Post
If any modern fighter had that type of record they would be laughed out of town, the double standards on here are laughable.

Objectivity. It would be nice to see some.
Of course the Archangel blew a golden trumpet, then every fight of that era magically appeared on boxrec.

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Old 01-19-2013, 08:01 AM   #39
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
Rocky, KUDOS for you. With the truth you have shattered the haters
of Jack Dempsey whether they know it or not...They will do anything to tarnish the image of Dempsey who had it so damn tough coming up in those meaner rougher times...Ali and others of Clay's time had a picnic in comparison
with his amateur days, under the guidance of the AAU compared to a Dempsey riding the undercarriage of railroad trains, holding on for dear life
to avoid being thrown off so he can get to his next town to fight for his grub...A hell of a tougher life than todays naysayers have...R, you have done yourself proud defending a good man young, Jack Dempsey.
Cheers Burt just seen your response just thought I had to restore a bit of reality to things
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:04 AM   #40
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Originally Posted by Boilermaker View Post
Laughed out of town, two or three wins against any sort of opposition will get any modern name fighter a title shot. Look what a win over a shot tyson did for Danny williams. Golota wins one or two fights and he gets another title shot. How is a modern fighter laughed at with this sort of record? Not that many if any can string together so many KO1s nowadays (against any sort of opposition).


Danny Williams isn't seen as some destroyer of worlds, in fact he isn't held in any regard. I have seen Dempsey top 5 on p4p lists. So that begs the question, what are we basing this on? Clearly not opposition, not longevity, not any type of definable aspect it would seem.
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:12 AM   #41
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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My point with the above post btw was not so much to denigrate Ali's per-title run as undeserving, but more so to illustrate that it didn't in any way influence how great a fighter he was - we all know how great a fighter Ali was and he still that great whether he had of fought another couple of big name fighters on the way up or not - point being Dempsey fought who he fought in those days - to use this as an indication that he wasn't all that is just clutching at straws really - like Ali he was one of the greatest champs we've ever had whether he fought the guys he fought he fought or whether you added a Sam Langford or a white Harry or a black Harry to resume or not

Alis' resume is built on him being tested by all manner of styles after he had established himself and fighting a very high level of opposition. Demspey wasn't one of the greatest champs ever, his level of opposition throughout his whole career is terrible, he got completely schooled against the best fighter he fought twice and ducked the two best fighters outside of that for the better part of a decade. Briggs would be a decent comparison, only i think he is more proven.
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:00 AM   #42
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Alis' resume is built on him being tested by all manner of styles after he had established himself and fighting a very high level of opposition. Demspey wasn't one of the greatest champs ever, his level of opposition throughout his whole career is terrible, he got completely schooled against the best fighter he fought twice and ducked the two best fighters outside of that for the better part of a decade. Briggs would be a decent comparison, only i think he is more proven.
Yes Ali fought all manner of fighters and that included two highly suspicious fights and unsatisfactory outcomes versus Sonny Liston, defences at his peak versus past it and injured Patterson who still managed to get through 12 rounds, a fairly good British heavyweight in Cooper, Brian London - who his own country wouldn't even sanction to face Ali (!!), an average karl Mildenberger, a veteran Folley, a shot (literally) Cleve, then he LOST to Frazier, then he LOST to Norton too arguably twice to Norton, in my view he was pretty clearly outpointed by Shavers and think Jimmy Young eeked a points win over him too - amongst the fillers were such luminaries as Jurgen blin, Joe Bugner, Rudi Lubbers, Chuck Wepner, Jean Pierre Coopman, Richard Dunn, Alfredo Evangelista, etc etc then he managed to lose to Leon Spinks aswell - this is an awful bunch of opponents - and a lot of those were title challengers aswell so don't give me any bull about Ali has stellar competition - his greatness for me was solidified by only two fights for me and they were his two best performances in the 2nd fight with norton and the fight with Foreman - the Lyle fight was stopped prematurely after Lyle had pretty much dominated the fight aswell?? Do I really need to go on?? There are swings and roundabouts with all fighters but Ali and Dempsey were great fighters both - I'd actually say that Dempsey pre-title run was as demanding as anys - certainly more demanding than Ali's by a long chalk
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:27 AM   #43
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

back in Dempsey's days of coal mining brawls and coming up the hard way, the promoter's and managers were not as advanced with the shenanigans that King (Holmes) and Foreman & co of fighting bums and keeping Judges and magazines (Ring) on the payroll...Tex Rickard was advanced for his time but still a piker compared to Don King...If you want to see a fighter who fought non-winning fighters even in his 30+career look to George and if you want to see a fighter who opponents got some kind of rating paid by his Promoter look to Holmes who as a Champ avoided many more than Dempsey is even accused of
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:28 AM   #44
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

Jeebus, I had no idea. That's awful. Great thread, Seamus. I enjoy your snide remarks, but this is actually very illuminating.

Why people want to put him in with Ali I'll never know.
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:42 AM   #45
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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back in Dempsey's days of coal mining brawls and coming up the hard way, the promoter's and managers were not as advanced with the shenanigans that King (Holmes) and Foreman & co of fighting bums and keeping Judges and magazines (Ring) on the payroll...Tex Rickard was advanced for his time but still a piker compared to Don King...If you want to see a fighter who fought non-winning fighters even in his 30+career look to George and if you want to see a fighter who opponents got some kind of rating paid by his Promoter look to Holmes who as a Champ avoided many more than Dempsey is even accused of
Absolutely agree about Foreman.

The difference between Ali and Dempsey is that Ali actually had a credible reign as heavyweight champion and as a contender after he was stripped and before he regained the championship. He did not avoid his two greatest challengers. He did not sit on the title. With Dempsey you get neither a great ascendancy to the throne nor a great reign. In fact, it is all a game of shadows and some myth making about a single day in Toledo. Where I come from we call that "All hat and no cattle."
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