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Old 01-20-2013, 11:54 AM   #151
Synthetic Decay
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
I completely disagree. Hagler often shifted his weight on his feet astoundingly. It moved opponents, and their necks, in addition to demonstrating impacts throughout the torso.

He also had a habit of swatting and poking until he found the opening he wanted to let something stick. I dont give him much for those.

I've never had an issue deciding which punches in Hagler-Hearns had impact vs. The ones that should be scored lesser because they truly did not.

Sorry Magna my reading comprehension is not great here. I was saying because Marv had such a great chin, it was to some degree going to look like the punches Ray was landing were not as powerful as they would do on a lesser opponent. Or something in that direction anyway.
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Old 01-20-2013, 11:54 AM   #152
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

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spot on! M
Thanks!
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Old 01-20-2013, 11:56 AM   #153
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

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Do you guys who say you don`t have to beat a champ, conclusively, really believe that ? Similar comparison, fighter A fights fighter B in B`s back yard. Whoever wins, no matter how close, gets the true decision ??? What planet are you from ? Judging isn`t just the technical aspect, you have human beings doing the scoring. If you don`t think you have to factor that in and make it definitve...
are you really asking that whoever wins the fight should get the decision who the **** else should win the fight?!
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Old 01-20-2013, 11:58 AM   #154
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

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My take:

Leonard won closely but clearly. He didn't 'run', he boxed precisely off the back foot. Any talk of needing to take the title is bull shit, otherwise Willie Pep would never have regained his featherweight championship.

Excellent display by a former welterweight to beat the middleweight king.

No shame in losing to Leonard; he'd have beaten several great middleweights, I'm sure of it. He always had that special talent and looked comfortable at 160lbs.

Hagler seemed to age very quickly. For whatever reason, he already looked slow by the Hearns fight and as a former student of Hagler's career, I in fact first noticed the decline in the Hamsho rematch, 1984, even if there was a great knockout on the end of it. By 1985, aggression was enough to cover up the fact he no longer had the speed and footwork to counter punch and box. Any snap in his punches had long disappeared by 1986 - seriously - see for yourself and compare the velocity from earlier showings. 1987 was worse.

Hagler simply couldn't keep up with Leonard and walked in with his head down and swung hooks slowly.

I'm absolutely convinced that a 1980-'83 Hagler would have dominated Leonard, and rightly so, seeing as 160lbs was his territory. He was a sharp hitting technician back then, as opposed to a slow, hittable, not-that-powerful clubber with only remnants remaining of a once stiff jab.

There was definitely a deterioration there. If it was anyone else but Marv in the first half of the fight, most people wouldn't have a problem scoring for Ray. He looked very flat, his work just wasn't cohesive. At his best i think he would have just ground Ray down with strength, sharpness and educated pressure.
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:03 PM   #155
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

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Really, and favored fighters don`t get unfair decisions? You are pathetic ... BTW, boxiing Einsein, have you watched some of the decisions that get handed out and still bakc that opinion ???
It's your way of thinking that causes a lot of these decisions.Champs or hyped prospects\higher profile contenders sitting on hometown decisiions because they know their opponent has to work three times as hard as them to get a win.
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:05 PM   #156
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

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There was definitely a deterioration there. If it was anyone else but Marv in the first half of the fight, most people wouldn't have a problem scoring for Ray. He looked very flat, his work just wasn't cohesive. At his best i think he would have just ground Ray down with strength, sharpness and educated pressure.
Educated pressure like that against Obelmejias? I agree. Leonard winning a few but holding on towards the end and giving up a 10-5 decision, remembering that perhaps Leonard would have also been a bit fresher back then, but Hagler was better than his 1987 incarnation in every way, by a long way.
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:06 PM   #157
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

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Smoke and mirrors = making your opponent plod towards you missing punches while you evade and counter.

Marv ****ed himself in this fight, strange tactics and mixed with the prefight talk, he dug a hole. Given the fact that Leonard was a career welter, credit to him even if Marv did manage to edge it. I don't remember Marv fighting many light heavies.
Hagler was making Leonard miss just as much, though. Leonard looked to bait Marvin in and drill, however Marvin was blocking and slipping nearly all of those attacks. He also blocked and slipped nearly all of Leonard's counters.

Leonard was fighting smarter, but it was no more effective, and in my opinion, actually less effective than Marvin's aggression. In a fight inwhich both people cancelled the other's offence out, I'm going to give the fight to who got in more shots, and that man was Hagler that night.

I don't agree with the "You have to take the title from the champ" BS, and did not score the fight by those standards.
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:07 PM   #158
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

Marvelous was not robbed. Leonard robbed him of the title.

Leonard was an opportunist, but he still went in there, worked his plan, and took it from a slipping Hagler.

Sad night for those of us who appreciated Hagler's integrity to Leonard's showboating.
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:07 PM   #159
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

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Originally Posted by Waynegrade View Post
Do you guys who say you don`t have to beat a champ, conclusively, really believe that ? Similar comparison, fighter A fights fighter B in B`s back yard. Whoever wins, no matter how close, gets the true decision ??? What planet are you from ? Judging isn`t just the technical aspect, you have human beings doing the scoring. If you don`t think you have to factor that in and make it definitve...
Yes, I believe that. Title fight or otherwise, it's very simple. Tally up your scorecards at the end of the 12 rounds and whoever comes out with the highest numbers wins the fight. Simples.
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:11 PM   #160
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

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Originally Posted by Waynegrade View Post
Do you guys who say you don`t have to beat a champ, conclusively, really believe that ? Similar comparison, fighter A fights fighter B in B`s back yard. Whoever wins, no matter how close, gets the true decision ??? What planet are you from ? Judging isn`t just the technical aspect, you have human beings doing the scoring. If you don`t think you have to factor that in and make it definitve...

Utter crap. Thank god you're not a boxing judge.

Seriously, what the ****......
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:15 PM   #161
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

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Hagler was making Leonard miss just as much, though. Leonard looked to bait Marvin in and drill, however Marvin was blocking and slipping nearly all of those attacks. He also blocked and slipped nearly all of Leonard's counters.

Leonard was fighting smarter, but it was no more effective, and in my opinion, actually less effective than Marvin's aggression. In a fight inwhich both people cancelled the other's offence out, I'm going to give the fight to who got in more shots, and that man was Hagler that night.

I don't agree with the "You have to take the title from the champ" BS, and did not score the fight by those standards.

I just didn't feel that Marv fought particularly well that night, Ray wasn't lighting him up, and it wasn't anything dramatic but his work seemed of the more quality to me. Marv was just plodding and swinging for a fair amount of the fight.

I was always more of a Hagler fan than a Leonard fan, but his tactics were very very ****ing strange in this fight, as said especially tallied with the prefight talk, anything close after that point is going to be weighted in Ray's favor.

Prime for prime, it's Hagler's fight. Prime Ray would be better than this incarnation but prime Hagler would be a lot better than this incarnation, but that wasn't the fight that took place.

Agree, if you win more rounds you should win the fight.
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:19 PM   #162
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

Ya gotta take it frum da champ

Cuz da champ is da one wit da integrity, come up da hard way an represent evrthin good 'bout this sport

How you jus gon take a man's livelyhood away pinchin' points on da backfoot?How you look at yersel in the mirror after it, eh chump
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:34 PM   #163
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

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Ya gotta take it frum da champ

Cuz da champ is da one wit da integrity, come up da hard way an represent evrthin good 'bout this sport

How you jus gon take a man's livelyhood away pinchin' points on da backfoot?How you look at yersel in the mirror after it, eh chump




See, that's the strange thing with this clown; he says he doesn't buy our "old-timers talk" about it being a simple matter of adding up the scorecards at the end of the fight. HIS goofy-ass way is precisely what the old-timey timers would do, he's got it all completely backwards. It's a time-honored joke, and he gets it totally backward.
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:47 PM   #164
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

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Terry Norris beats them both on the same night !!
I would agree. Norris would have little trouble with either
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:49 PM   #165
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Default Re: Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

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I would agree. Norris would have little trouble with either
i love the shit out of norris and if we're talking the 87 versions, i agree he could win
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