Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

[TIGEREDGE]

Originally Posted by Manassa

Not from my perspective.

Several boxers had a lot more fights, month in, month out, against the best of their day. I don't believe Leonard's record, while spectacular, can match Ezzard Charles', for but one example:

Moore x3
Walcott x2
Bivins x4
Maxim x5
Marshall x2
Burley x2
Louis
Yarosz

All in the Hall of Fame. Went tooth and nail versus Marciano and lost a controversial decision to Harold Johnson, too, when a few years past his best of course. Not mentioning a whole host of Davey Green level contenders, a beaten list of which must be twice the length of Leonard's.

Sorry - old timers seemed to fight more often against quality opposition (I'm well aware they generally lost more as well). That's just the way it is, not favouritism.

Leonard, about #22 for me. But higher for ability. I feel he'd have carved a definite top ten all-time career for himself if he'd been around earlier and ended up with a record of 89-9-2 and more names and numbers of names to his name.

i agree with yer. i dont think his resume is the best but its up there

charles and harry greb are my top 2

[TIGEREDGE]

Originally Posted by SouthpawJab

Top 5 or 3

nah needs his career to last longer. top 5 in a ability maybe

i think its really wrong to say he was greater than the following list. yes he was more gifted than some guys on this list

srr, armstrong, ali, greg, charles, duran, longford, pep, bennny leonard, moore, walker, saddler, ketchell, louis, Tony Canzoneri,Jimmy Wilde, jcc.

there are a few other guys i would rank above him on achievements. i

[MMJoe]

Originally Posted by Nipple

I'd say he's the greatest ever. An amazing talent who was so spiteful yet wonderfully skilled at the same time. A true fighter.

The complete package. He had it all.

Yes

[MAG1965]

I rate greatness on how many greats does a fighter beat. And he beat 4.

[redrooster]

Sorry to spoil the party but no. By the end of 1981 Sugar had the BEGINNINGS of a promising career but next to dozens of other greats, those feats dwindle into insignificance and are only impressive to fans belonging to HIS era

In order to do that he would have to had beaten a prime Hagler 1982-83ish and frankly, he wasnt good enough nor man enough to do that

another approach, an easier one would have been to ignore the middleweight division for a time until Hagler cleared out and settled for a fight with Pryor fresh off a bombastic bombing of Arguello and defnitely entering his prime. Leonard might have won but we'll never know

a nice follow up would be to then take on his heir Donald Curry who hit his prime in 85.

HAd he defeated both men, Sugar could be worthy of a top 20 spot becuz it would prove he's consistent in winning big fights. as it was, he only won 3/4 by 1981 which translates into 75%

something else that wouldve helped his rep would have been to take more chances as he got older and prove his mettle against younger stars with lots of speed such as Micheal Nunn & Terry Norris

Sugar wanted to fight at the time but only against tired, worn out names which confirm my original suspicions that he wasnt up to fighting prime Hagler but his eye wasnt the reason for it

[prime]

He's in, by a whisker.

In opportunist fashion, but, still, fair and square, the four legs on this stool are the scalps of: Thomas Hearns, Marvin Hagler, Wilfredo Benitez, Roberto Duran.

Throw in huge Lalonde for good measure.

As a fighter, Leonard had huge focus, speed, skill, chin, heart to hang with anyone.

You can't knock a man for looking for angles if, in the ring, where nobody can help you, he always delivered.

He was exciting and, in the end, acquitted the hype.

[Addie]

Originally Posted by prime

He's in, by a whisker.

In opportunist fashion, but, still, fair and square, the four legs on this stool are the scalps of: Thomas Hearns, Marvin Hagler, Wilfredo Benitez, Roberto Duran.

Throw in huge Lalonde for good measure.

As a fighter, Leonard had huge focus, speed, skill, chin, heart to hang with anyone.

You can't knock a man for looking for angles if, in the ring, where nobody can help you, he always delivered.

He was exciting and, in the end, acquitted the hype.

Legs on a stool? More the tires on his 4x4. Quite remarkable that only Hagler went the distance.

[redrooster]

Originally Posted by prime

He's in, by a whisker.

In opportunist fashion, but, still, fair and square, the four legs on this stool are the scalps of: Thomas Hearns, Marvin Hagler, Wilfredo Benitez, Roberto Duran.

Throw in huge Lalonde for good measure.

As a fighter, Leonard had huge focus, speed, skill, chin, heart to hang with anyone.

You can't knock a man for looking for angles if, in the ring, where nobody can help you, he always delivered.

He was exciting and, in the end, acquitted the hype.

He didnt deliver when it came to Norris. When confronted by another fighter with exceptional speed, the pace set by Norris exceeded what Leonard was accustomed to, he lost his form and reached the level of incompetence when compared with a thoroughbred like Norris. We just saw his true colors which were not evident until he faced Norris

Lalonde for good measure? Lalonde was NOTHING! you're reaching for another name and their aint none

and his chin was just slightly above average. Decked by Howard, staggered by arm puncher Geraldo, and decked too many times for having that short a career

Only his speed and defense could be considered outstanding

[Addie]

Originally Posted by redrooster

He didnt deliver when it came to Norris.

You never fail to deliver the goods, Red.

[TIGEREDGE]

Originally Posted by redrooster

He didnt deliver when it came to Norris. When confronted by another fighter with exceptional speed, the pace set by Norris exceeded what Leonard was accustomed to, he lost his form and reached the level of incompetence when compared with a thoroughbred like Norris. We just saw his true colors which were not evident until he faced Norris

Lalonde for good measure? Lalonde was NOTHING! you're reaching for another name and their aint none

and his chin was just slightly above average. Decked by Howard, staggered by arm puncher Geraldo, and decked too many times for having that short a career

Only his speed and defense could be considered outstanding

your very wrong on norris fight. ray was faded and hadnt fought in over a year]]

your right as hell on lalonde. donny was a drained nobody.

[ripcity]

Top 20 would be underrating Ray Leonard.

[MAG1965]

Ray is top 10.. Top 5? His wins might warrant it, but 40 wins in a whole career and his retirements and broadcasting for HBO when his buddies Duran,Hearns and Hagler and Benitez were all fighing shows he just did not fight enough for top 5.

[Curtis Lowe]

I personally despise SRL, but he is easily a top 20 ATG.

Excellent boxing skills, great chin, excellent hand speed and movement, excellent power, had the ability to adapt when required.

It is just a shame he is/was such a shit.

[Body Head]

No doubt about it. Probably closer to the top 15 range.

[ripcity]

If you look at resume as top oppoents fought in and near their prime. Than Leonard's resume might be lacking, but you'd be wrong to do so. If you correctly view resume as top oppoents beaten in or near their prime than Leonard who is 2-1 vs. Duran, 1-0-1 against Hearns, 1-0 vs. Hagler and 1-0 over Bentiez. Has as good of a resume as anyone. He's hurt by not fighting 82-84.