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Old 01-20-2013, 12:03 AM   #16
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

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I'd say he's the greatest ever. An amazing talent who was so spiteful yet wonderfully skilled at the same time. A true fighter.

The complete package. He had it all.
Yes
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:23 AM   #17
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

I rate greatness on how many greats does a fighter beat. And he beat 4.
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Old 01-20-2013, 11:09 AM   #18
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

Sorry to spoil the party but no. By the end of 1981 Sugar had the BEGINNINGS of a promising career but next to dozens of other greats, those feats dwindle into insignificance and are only impressive to fans belonging to HIS era

In order to do that he would have to had beaten a prime Hagler 1982-83ish and frankly, he wasnt good enough nor man enough to do that

another approach, an easier one would have been to ignore the middleweight division for a time until Hagler cleared out and settled for a fight with Pryor fresh off a bombastic bombing of Arguello and defnitely entering his prime. Leonard might have won but we'll never know

a nice follow up would be to then take on his heir Donald Curry who hit his prime in 85.

HAd he defeated both men, Sugar could be worthy of a top 20 spot becuz it would prove he's consistent in winning big fights. as it was, he only won 3/4 by 1981 which translates into 75%

something else that wouldve helped his rep would have been to take more chances as he got older and prove his mettle against younger stars with lots of speed such as Micheal Nunn & Terry Norris

Sugar wanted to fight at the time but only against tired, worn out names which confirm my original suspicions that he wasnt up to fighting prime Hagler but his eye wasnt the reason for it
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:22 PM   #19
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

He's in, by a whisker.

In opportunist fashion, but, still, fair and square, the four legs on this stool are the scalps of: Thomas Hearns, Marvin Hagler, Wilfredo Benitez, Roberto Duran.

Throw in huge Lalonde for good measure.

As a fighter, Leonard had huge focus, speed, skill, chin, heart to hang with anyone.

You can't knock a man for looking for angles if, in the ring, where nobody can help you, he always delivered.

He was exciting and, in the end, acquitted the hype.
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Old 01-20-2013, 12:40 PM   #20
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

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He's in, by a whisker.

In opportunist fashion, but, still, fair and square, the four legs on this stool are the scalps of: Thomas Hearns, Marvin Hagler, Wilfredo Benitez, Roberto Duran.

Throw in huge Lalonde for good measure.

As a fighter, Leonard had huge focus, speed, skill, chin, heart to hang with anyone.

You can't knock a man for looking for angles if, in the ring, where nobody can help you, he always delivered.

He was exciting and, in the end, acquitted the hype.
Legs on a stool? More the tires on his 4x4. Quite remarkable that only Hagler went the distance.
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Old 01-20-2013, 01:07 PM   #21
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

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Originally Posted by prime View Post
He's in, by a whisker.

In opportunist fashion, but, still, fair and square, the four legs on this stool are the scalps of: Thomas Hearns, Marvin Hagler, Wilfredo Benitez, Roberto Duran.

Throw in huge Lalonde for good measure.

As a fighter, Leonard had huge focus, speed, skill, chin, heart to hang with anyone.

You can't knock a man for looking for angles if, in the ring, where nobody can help you, he always delivered.

He was exciting and, in the end, acquitted the hype.
He didnt deliver when it came to Norris. When confronted by another fighter with exceptional speed, the pace set by Norris exceeded what Leonard was accustomed to, he lost his form and reached the level of incompetence when compared with a thoroughbred like Norris. We just saw his true colors which were not evident until he faced Norris

Lalonde for good measure? Lalonde was NOTHING! you're reaching for another name and their aint none

and his chin was just slightly above average. Decked by Howard, staggered by arm puncher Geraldo, and decked too many times for having that short a career

Only his speed and defense could be considered outstanding
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Old 01-20-2013, 01:19 PM   #22
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

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He didnt deliver when it came to Norris.
You never fail to deliver the goods, Red.
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Old 01-20-2013, 02:19 PM   #23
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

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He didnt deliver when it came to Norris. When confronted by another fighter with exceptional speed, the pace set by Norris exceeded what Leonard was accustomed to, he lost his form and reached the level of incompetence when compared with a thoroughbred like Norris. We just saw his true colors which were not evident until he faced Norris

Lalonde for good measure? Lalonde was NOTHING! you're reaching for another name and their aint none

and his chin was just slightly above average. Decked by Howard, staggered by arm puncher Geraldo, and decked too many times for having that short a career

Only his speed and defense could be considered outstanding
your very wrong on norris fight. ray was faded and hadnt fought in over a year]]

your right as hell on lalonde. donny was a drained nobody.
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Old 01-20-2013, 04:14 PM   #24
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

Top 20 would be underrating Ray Leonard.
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Old 01-20-2013, 04:23 PM   #25
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

Ray is top 10.. Top 5? His wins might warrant it, but 40 wins in a whole career and his retirements and broadcasting for HBO when his buddies Duran,Hearns and Hagler and Benitez were all fighing shows he just did not fight enough for top 5.
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Old 01-20-2013, 05:10 PM   #26
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

I personally despise SRL, but he is easily a top 20 ATG.

Excellent boxing skills, great chin, excellent hand speed and movement, excellent power, had the ability to adapt when required.

It is just a shame he is/was such a shit.
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Old 01-20-2013, 05:52 PM   #27
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

No doubt about it. Probably closer to the top 15 range.
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Old 01-20-2013, 07:01 PM   #28
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

If you look at resume as top oppoents fought in and near their prime. Than Leonard's resume might be lacking, but you'd be wrong to do so. If you correctly view resume as top oppoents beaten in or near their prime than Leonard who is 2-1 vs. Duran, 1-0-1 against Hearns, 1-0 vs. Hagler and 1-0 over Bentiez. Has as good of a resume as anyone. He's hurt by not fighting 82-84.
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Old 01-20-2013, 08:20 PM   #29
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

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Originally Posted by redrooster View Post
Sorry to spoil the party but no. By the end of 1981 Sugar had the BEGINNINGS of a promising career but next to dozens of other greats, those feats dwindle into insignificance and are only impressive to fans belonging to HIS era

In order to do that he would have to had beaten a prime Hagler 1982-83ish and frankly, he wasnt good enough nor man enough to do that

another approach, an easier one would have been to ignore the middleweight division for a time until Hagler cleared out and settled for a fight with Pryor fresh off a bombastic bombing of Arguello and defnitely entering his prime. Leonard might have won but we'll never know

a nice follow up would be to then take on his heir Donald Curry who hit his prime in 85.

HAd he defeated both men, Sugar could be worthy of a top 20 spot becuz it would prove he's consistent in winning big fights. as it was, he only won 3/4 by 1981 which translates into 75%

something else that wouldve helped his rep would have been to take more chances as he got older and prove his mettle against younger stars with lots of speed such as Micheal Nunn & Terry Norris

Sugar wanted to fight at the time but only against tired, worn out names which confirm my original suspicions that he wasnt up to fighting prime Hagler but his eye wasnt the reason for it
Ditto
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:31 AM   #30
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

No, I wouldn't have him in my top 20 pound-for-pound.

Off the top of my head, I'd have (in no particular order) Henry Armstrong, Harry Greb, Benny Leonard, Sam Langford, Ray Robinson, Willie Pep, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Mickey Walker, Joe Gans, Jimmy McLarnin, Barney Ross, Tony Canzoneri, Bob Fitzsimmons, Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali, Roberto Duran, Terry McGovern, Charley Burley and Packey McFarland above him ... among others.

He might make a top 35
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