Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

[dinovelvet]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

wlad and rocky are essentially from differing weight classes. Wlad is from a weight class Rocky is unproven in. I just don't see him beating the much bigger and much heavier man and I saw nothing in his career suggesting he would do so.

Thats just ridiculousness. I seen Rocky pummell bigger guys with a nonstop attack that only gained momentum as the rounds past. Wlad being bigger isn't going to shield him from the brutal assualt Rocky would be bringing him. You neglect the body attack. Have you ever taken shots to the body? I have, by a trainer who was almost a pro. Its sickening. Brewster ****ed Wlad up by going downstairs. I counted only 3 body shot s landed within the first 3 rounds and Wlad was visibly panting in his corner. Rocky chops him down inside where he has no power or inside game.

[Synthetic Decay]

Originally Posted by dinovelvet

Thats just ridiculousness. I seen Rocky pummell bigger guys with a nonstop attack that only gained momentum as the rounds past. Wlad being bigger isn't going to shield him from the brutal assualt Rocky would be bringing him. You neglect the body attack. Have you ever taken shots to the body? I have, by a trainer who was almost a pro. Its sickening. Brewster ****ed Wlad up by going downstairs. I counted only 3 body shot s landed within the first 3 rounds and Wlad was visibly panting in his corner. Rocky chops him down inside where he has no power or inside game.

That's the problem, getting inside. Brewster took Wlad's legs with a left hook to the head if i remember rightly, Brewster was a big puncher. It's not impossible, but you are disregarding the danger of Wlad's offence and how much his range keeping and movement to that end has improved.

[dinovelvet]

Originally Posted by orriray59

Hey, earlier on in the thread I posted my experiences sparring somebody much larger, to which you dismissed.

And here you are, hypocritically doing what you told me not to do.

How old are you again, 16?

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by dinovelvet

Thats just ridiculousness. I seen Rocky pummell bigger guys with a nonstop attack that only gained momentum as the rounds past. Wlad being bigger isn't going to shield him from the brutal assualt Rocky would be bringing him. You neglect the body attack. Have you ever taken shots to the body? I have, by a trainer who was almost a pro. Its sickening. Brewster ****ed Wlad up by going downstairs. I counted only 3 body shot s landed within the first 3 rounds and Wlad was visibly panting in his corner. Rocky chops him down inside where he has no power or inside game.

Which bigger guys have you seen him pummel with a body attack?

I've never taken a body shot as I'm a teacher and not a boxer.

Brewster got Wlad to gas, no doubt. He took a lot of shots to get there though and I can't see Rocky taking the same shots nor hitting as hard as Brewster did. In the rematch we saw Brewster fail to match his prior success. If wlad isn't 100% history shows he tires early and in that case I'd pick Rocky by knockout late on. However peak for peak I'm taking a 100% wlad who isn't gonna gas so easily.

[edward morbius]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

Quite often I post from memory and not boxrec which means I make errors. I thought Valdes was big enough to consider a shw, if I'm wrong then fair enough. But my main point is Rocky has very little evidence of his effectiveness against the truly big men. Valdes was bigger and gives a bit more indication I feel.

I doubt Wlad will ever come near Louis, Ali nor Lewis. But Rocky, Johnson, Tyson, Foreman, Frazier, Holmes, these guys he can overtake in my opinion. I don't hold the Vitali situation against him and whilst he never fought Lewis when younger it was because he couldn't generate the money of Tyson, didn't become a mandatory with the WBC and perhaps most importantly got iced by Sanders. He'd have been iced by Lewis as well. However from 05 onwards he's begun to really clean house. Victories over Povetkin and Arreola would underline that status. As long as he continues to defend against the best available opposition his legacy will grow.

Valdes

Valdes was 6' 3" or so and about 207-215 most of the time.

Louis was 6' 2" and 213 for Marciano.

Bob Baker was 6' 2" and 210 and defeated Valdes twice.

But Valdes was beaten twice by Moore and also by Satterfield, and Baker was ko'd by both Moore and Satterfield. Weill tried to talk up a Baker fight with Marciano in 1955 but the press and public demanded that Moore get the shot.

[dinovelvet]

Originally Posted by Synthetic Decay

That's the problem, getting inside. Brewster took Wlad's legs with a left hook to the head if i remember rightly, Brewster was a big puncher. It's not impossible, but you are disregarding the danger of Wlad's offence and how much his range keeping and movement to that end has improved.

Marciano Will step inside and when he does he WILL land. He'll catch him with an overhand right over the jab followed by a uppercut to the ribs. Thats when Wlad crumbles and gets chopped down. Its happeded before, the tapes are out there. Rocky was one of the hardest hitters in history in case you forgot.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by dinovelvet

Marciano Will step inside and when he does he WILL land. He'll catch him with an overhand right over the jab followed by a uppercut to the ribs. Thats when Wlad crumbles and gets chopped down. Its happeded before, the tapes are out there. Rocky was one of the hardest hitters in history in case you forgot.

Exactly when did happen to fighter the combined size, strength and skill level of Wlad?

I'll go through my tapes again and see if I can find that fight.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by edward morbius

Valdes

Valdes was 6' 3" or so and about 207-215 most of the time.

Louis was 6' 2" and 213 for Marciano.

Bob Baker was 6' 2" and 210 and defeated Valdes twice.

But Valdes was beaten twice by Moore and also by Satterfield, and Baker was ko'd by both Moore and Satterfield. Weill tried to talk up a Baker fight with Marciano in 1955 but the press and public demanded that Moore get the shot.

Fair enough I did think he was heaview but as I said, I make errors when posting from memory.

To be fair to Marciano he defeated who he had to defeat at the time he defeated them. It's just in this instance the criticism I hold is he isn't proven against big guys.

I don't hold him not fighting those guys against him because he better better ranked challengers. It's just unfortunate those better ranked challengers were all smaller men when it comes to comparisons like this.

[dinovelvet]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Exactly when did happen to fighter the combined size, strength and skill level of Wlad?

I'll go through my tapes again and see if I can find that fight.

He hasn't. Size doesn't win fights nor protect you from hurting. Can you understand this very simpile logic.

[dinovelvet]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

Fair enough I did think he was heaview but as I said, I make errors when posting from memory.

To be fair to Marciano he defeated who he had to defeat at the time he defeated them. It's just in this instance the criticism I hold is he isn't proven against big guys.

I don't hold him not fighting those guys against him because he better better ranked challengers. It's just unfortunate those better ranked challengers were all smaller men when it comes to comparisons like this.

And Wlad inst proven against guys like Rocky. In fact there are the type of guys who have beaten him and are the same guys hes avoiding now.

[Bummy Davis]

Originally Posted by edward morbius

Valdes

Valdes was 6' 3" or so and about 207-215 most of the time.

Louis was 6' 2" and 213 for Marciano.

Bob Baker was 6' 2" and 210 and defeated Valdes twice.

But Valdes was beaten twice by Moore and also by Satterfield, and Baker was ko'd by both Moore and Satterfield. Weill tried to talk up a Baker fight with Marciano in 1955 but the press and public demanded that Moore get the shot.

Baker and Valdez were beaten by Moore and they were also trying to make an interest in a Valdes fight for Rocky's 50 win but Valdes got beaten and dropped for a 9 count in the last round by Satterfeild a few weeks before Marciano-Moore....Satterfeild was already blasted out in 2 by Charles and Valdes lost any chance of making a Marciano fight marketable....Baker was KO'd by Moore so fight 50 would have to been a rematch vs Moore and other than the flash KD by Moore, Archie was pretty much dominated by Marciano but Archie was on his best win streak leading up to Marciano and had beaten many of the Big Heavyweights as well as the smaller talented guys in that streak marred only by a DQ loss and a controversial decision that he avenged by KO over Harold Johnson an ATG

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by dinovelvet

And Wlad inst proven against guys like Rocky. In fact there are the type of guys who have beaten him and are the same guys hes avoiding now.

Wlad has never faced someone like Rocky and there isn't anyone today that can compare to him. He has dominated 3 world class cruiser sized opponents though.

Neither have faced the required styles. So itsa question of who you give the benefit of doubt to. I personally go with the big great one as opposed to the little great one.

[dinovelvet]

Wlad being great is an opinion. He doesn't embody the characteristics that made guys like Marciano, Louis, Tyson great.
His greatness has been measured by some by the amount of weak opposition he has beaten on the trott.
Unfortunately for him and this debate thats not a skill and doesn't win fights against former ATGs.

[Absolutely!]

Jesus 68 pages.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by dinovelvet

Wlad being great is an opinion. He doesn't embody the characteristics that made guys like Marciano, Louis, Tyson great.
His greatness has been measured by some by the amount of weak opposition he has beaten on the trott.
Unfortunately for him and this debate thats not a skill and doesn't win fights against former ATGs.

Of course it's an opinion. As is Rocky being great.

Like I said I give the benefit of the doubt to the big great.