Wladimir Klitschko vs. Rocky Marciano

[edward morbius]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Are we talking head to head here? Because size (coupled with skill) is very important if we are. I'll concede your point if we are talking legacy. He fought the best around. I just think the best around at that point were better in name than substance, which brings us to...




We are talking road miles versus highway miles here. Walcott was at the end of a 70 fight career fought under trying circumstances and in which he had been KO'd 6 times by its end. He was barely .500 over his 12 fights previous to Marciano. Charles was 95 fights into a career whose ledger was adorned with Hall of Famers and elite talent. He was on the precipice of a very steep decline after a remarkable run. Louis had no business being in the ring by the time Marciano got to him. He had no right hand and no legs. Marciano faced each of these fresh from hitting practice home runs on the New England circuit against ham and eggers.

As far as Waldo, he is still relatively fresh but near the end. Outside of two of the KO's he has suffered, he stays fairly intact. Still, the end is nearer than most suspect. Vitali should have retired a while ago. He looks like shit.




I don't recall anyone, outside of an increasingly unintelligible Holyfield, calling for a Wlad-Holy fight. If I recall correctly, Lewis chose Vitali over Wlad for an opponent. And the Vitali thing, like I stated earlier, I am a bit on the fence about. I understand them not fighting but it is very convenient, also.

"Louis had no business being in the ring"

He was coming off 8 straight wins, and looking at the end of the year ratings for 1951 from the Feb 1952 issue of The Ring, all 8 wins were over top 50 fighters, five over fighters rated at the end of the year (Brion, Agramonte, Bivins) and one over a man who was not only hightly rated, but actually a title claiment (Savold). By modern standards, Louis would have been considered one of the alphabet champions.

Louis never lost to anyone who arguably wasn't at that time the best in the world.

Compared to Louis, how many Klitschko opponents should not have been in the ring with a champion?

Louis had gone back, certainly, and a lot, but he had been the dominant heavyweight for close to 15 years, and was still by ordinary standards a formidable fighter.
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Walcott

6 ko defeats--over his career, counting the two by Marciano. Three of those ko's came prior to WWII. Only Louis in their second fight had stopped him since 1940. I would think if he had lost it because of being ko'd, or a tough life, he would never have had his post WWII career.

As for taking all this punishment--Walcott was the sort who took a lot of punishment in fights?

As for his record--since 1947 he had lost to Louis (2), Charles (2), and Layne, but the majority thought Walcott deserved the first fight with Louis, and he split four fights with Charles. So he basically pretty much fought on even terms with Louis and Charles.

The only hard to explain loss since 1946 was the upset to Layne, for what it is worth.

Walcott was coming off two victories over Charles, was the incumbent champion, and looked good against Marciano in 1952.

Going into the Marciano fight Walcott had been stopped once in the previous 12 years (by Louis). Going back 12 years from today, Wlad has been stopped twice (by Sanders and Brewster)
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Charles had gone back, and it is a legitimate question how much, but he was still coming off two impressive ko's and was ranked the #1 contender.

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[lufcrazy]

Marciano just isn't proven against super heavyweight fighters. Had he fought and destroyed Valdes we might have a better idea as he was big with a solid jab.

Dempsey, Frazier, and Louis these guys did beat super heavyweights so I can understand those who favour them over Wlad but the same can't be said for Rocky. It's like comparing fighters from different weight classes and it's too much of a leap of faith.

I don't agree that Wlad is greater yet but I think history will remember him as the greater heavyweight. he'll probably stay champ until he's 40 racking up victories over ranked contenders.

[dinovelvet]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

Marciano just isn't proven against super heavyweight fighters. Had he fought and destroyed Valdes we might have a better idea as he was big with a solid jab.

Dempsey, Frazier, and Louis these guys did beat super heavyweights so I can understand those who favour them over Wlad but the same can't be said for Rocky. It's like comparing fighters from different weight classes and it's too much of a leap of faith.

I don't agree that Wlad is greater yet but I think history will remember him as the greater heavyweight. he'll probably stay champ until he's 40 racking up victories over ranked contenders.

Nobody is talking about other HWs. This thread is about Wlad. No blueprint exsits on how he beats an elite level boxer let alone AN ATG. Its a matter of styles and Marciano was a stylelistic nightmare for Wlad and his extremely low level of punch resistance.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by dinovelvet

Nobody is talking about other HWs. This thread is about Wlad. No blueprint exsits on how he beats an elite level boxer let alone AN ATG. Its a matter of styles and Marciano was a stylelistic nightmare for Wlad and his extremely low level of punch resistance.

wlad and rocky are essentially from differing weight classes. Wlad is from a weight class Rocky is unproven in. I just don't see him beating the much bigger and much heavier man and I saw nothing in his career suggesting he would do so.

[Synthetic Decay]

Originally Posted by dinovelvet

Nobody is talking about other HWs. This thread is about Wlad. No blueprint exsits on how he beats an elite level boxer let alone AN ATG. Its a matter of styles and Marciano was a stylelistic nightmare for Wlad and his extremely low level of punch resistance.

Bryd, Haye, Chambers were all elite level boxers.

[edward morbius]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

Marciano just isn't proven against super heavyweight fighters. Had he fought and destroyed Valdes we might have a better idea as he was big with a solid jab.

Dempsey, Frazier, and Louis these guys did beat super heavyweights so I can understand those who favour them over Wlad but the same can't be said for Rocky. It's like comparing fighters from different weight classes and it's too much of a leap of faith.

I don't agree that Wlad is greater yet but I think history will remember him as the greater heavyweight. he'll probably stay champ until he's 40 racking up victories over ranked contenders.

I disagree with you about Valdes.

He had four fights with Moore, Johnson, and Satterfield, all smaller than Marciano, and went 0-4.

I just don't think Valdes was all that good and so a victory by Marciano over him would hardly prove anything in comparision to Wlad or Vitali.

Valdes was big, but not bigger really than Louis and not as good a fighter, even the Louis of 1951.

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As for Wlad's historical rating, I currently have him 9th, and he could move up a few notches if he continues, as you say, to win. I also think he might well be able to hold the title into his forties.

But I don't know if these sort of contenders he is fighting recently will really look all that good historically. Thompson? Two shots at the title?

I don't know how history will judge, and history is always contentious, but I think he will have a tough time pushing into the top five regardless of his eventual longevity because of not beating the other top guys out there, Lewis and Vitali, and the bad defeats when young.

But we shall see--not me, but the younger folks who will live enough to read an historical judgement.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by edward morbius

I disagree with you about Valdes.

He had four fights with Moore, Johnson, and Satterfield, all smaller than Marciano, and went 0-4.

I just don't think Valdes was all that good and so a victory by Marciano over him would hardly prove anything in comparision to Wlad or Vitali.

Valdes was big, but not bigger really than Louis and not as good of a fighter, even the Louis of 1951.

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As for Wlad's historical rating, I currently have him 9th, and he could move up a few notches if he continues, as you say, to win. I also think he might well be able to hold the title into his forties.

But I don't know if these sort of contenders he is fighting recently will really look all that good historically. Thompson? Two shots at the title?

I don't know how history will judge, and history is always contentious, but I think myself he will have a tough time pushing into the top five regardless of his eventual longevity because of not beating the other top guys out there, Lewis and Vitali, and the bad defeats when young.

But we shall see--not me, but the younger folks who will live enough to see an historical judgement.

Quite often I post from memory and not boxrec which means I make errors. I thought Valdes was big enough to consider a shw, if I'm wrong then fair enough. But my main point is Rocky has very little evidence of his effectiveness against the truly big men. Valdes was bigger and gives a bit more indication I feel.

I doubt Wlad will ever come near Louis, Ali nor Lewis. But Rocky, Johnson, Tyson, Foreman, Frazier, Holmes, these guys he can overtake in my opinion. I don't hold the Vitali situation against him and whilst he never fought Lewis when younger it was because he couldn't generate the money of Tyson, didn't become a mandatory with the WBC and perhaps most importantly got iced by Sanders. He'd have been iced by Lewis as well. However from 05 onwards he's begun to really clean house. Victories over Povetkin and Arreola would underline that status. As long as he continues to defend against the best available opposition his legacy will grow.

[dinovelvet]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

wlad and rocky are essentially from differing weight classes. Wlad is from a weight class Rocky is unproven in. I just don't see him beating the much bigger and much heavier man and I saw nothing in his career suggesting he would do so.

Thats just ridiculousness. I seen Rocky pummell bigger guys with a nonstop attack that only gained momentum as the rounds past. Wlad being bigger isn't going to shield him from the brutal assualt Rocky would be bringing him. You neglect the body attack. Have you ever taken shots to the body? I have, by a trainer who was almost a pro. Its sickening. Brewster fucked Wlad up by going downstairs. I counted only 3 body shot s landed within the first 3 rounds and Wlad was visibly panting in his corner. Rocky chops him down inside where he has no power or inside game.

[Synthetic Decay]

Originally Posted by dinovelvet

Thats just ridiculousness. I seen Rocky pummell bigger guys with a nonstop attack that only gained momentum as the rounds past. Wlad being bigger isn't going to shield him from the brutal assualt Rocky would be bringing him. You neglect the body attack. Have you ever taken shots to the body? I have, by a trainer who was almost a pro. Its sickening. Brewster fucked Wlad up by going downstairs. I counted only 3 body shot s landed within the first 3 rounds and Wlad was visibly panting in his corner. Rocky chops him down inside where he has no power or inside game.

That's the problem, getting inside. Brewster took Wlad's legs with a left hook to the head if i remember rightly, Brewster was a big puncher. It's not impossible, but you are disregarding the danger of Wlad's offence and how much his range keeping and movement to that end has improved.

[orriray59]

Originally Posted by dinovelvet

Thats just ridiculousness. I seen Rocky pummell bigger guys with a nonstop attack that only gained momentum as the rounds past. Wlad being bigger isn't going to shield him from the brutal assualt Rocky would be bringing him. You neglect the body attack. Have you ever taken shots to the body? I have, by a trainer who was almost a pro. Its sickening. Brewster fucked Wlad up by going downstairs. I counted only 3 body shot s landed within the first 3 rounds and Wlad was visibly panting in his corner. Rocky chops him down inside where he has no power or inside game.

Hey, earlier on in the thread I posted my experiences sparring somebody much larger, to which you dismissed.

And here you are, hypocritically doing what you told me not to do.

[dinovelvet]

Originally Posted by orriray59

Hey, earlier on in the thread I posted my experiences sparring somebody much larger, to which you dismissed.

And here you are, hypocritically doing what you told me not to do.

How old are you again, 16?

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by dinovelvet

Thats just ridiculousness. I seen Rocky pummell bigger guys with a nonstop attack that only gained momentum as the rounds past. Wlad being bigger isn't going to shield him from the brutal assualt Rocky would be bringing him. You neglect the body attack. Have you ever taken shots to the body? I have, by a trainer who was almost a pro. Its sickening. Brewster fucked Wlad up by going downstairs. I counted only 3 body shot s landed within the first 3 rounds and Wlad was visibly panting in his corner. Rocky chops him down inside where he has no power or inside game.

Which bigger guys have you seen him pummel with a body attack?

I've never taken a body shot as I'm a teacher and not a boxer.

Brewster got Wlad to gas, no doubt. He took a lot of shots to get there though and I can't see Rocky taking the same shots nor hitting as hard as Brewster did. In the rematch we saw Brewster fail to match his prior success. If wlad isn't 100% history shows he tires early and in that case I'd pick Rocky by knockout late on. However peak for peak I'm taking a 100% wlad who isn't gonna gas so easily.

[edward morbius]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

Quite often I post from memory and not boxrec which means I make errors. I thought Valdes was big enough to consider a shw, if I'm wrong then fair enough. But my main point is Rocky has very little evidence of his effectiveness against the truly big men. Valdes was bigger and gives a bit more indication I feel.

I doubt Wlad will ever come near Louis, Ali nor Lewis. But Rocky, Johnson, Tyson, Foreman, Frazier, Holmes, these guys he can overtake in my opinion. I don't hold the Vitali situation against him and whilst he never fought Lewis when younger it was because he couldn't generate the money of Tyson, didn't become a mandatory with the WBC and perhaps most importantly got iced by Sanders. He'd have been iced by Lewis as well. However from 05 onwards he's begun to really clean house. Victories over Povetkin and Arreola would underline that status. As long as he continues to defend against the best available opposition his legacy will grow.

Valdes

Valdes was 6' 3" or so and about 207-215 most of the time.

Louis was 6' 2" and 213 for Marciano.

Bob Baker was 6' 2" and 210 and defeated Valdes twice.

But Valdes was beaten twice by Moore and also by Satterfield, and Baker was ko'd by both Moore and Satterfield. Weill tried to talk up a Baker fight with Marciano in 1955 but the press and public demanded that Moore get the shot.

[dinovelvet]

Originally Posted by Synthetic Decay

That's the problem, getting inside. Brewster took Wlad's legs with a left hook to the head if i remember rightly, Brewster was a big puncher. It's not impossible, but you are disregarding the danger of Wlad's offence and how much his range keeping and movement to that end has improved.

Marciano Will step inside and when he does he WILL land. He'll catch him with an overhand right over the jab followed by a uppercut to the ribs. Thats when Wlad crumbles and gets chopped down. Its happeded before, the tapes are out there. Rocky was one of the hardest hitters in history in case you forgot.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by dinovelvet

Marciano Will step inside and when he does he WILL land. He'll catch him with an overhand right over the jab followed by a uppercut to the ribs. Thats when Wlad crumbles and gets chopped down. Its happeded before, the tapes are out there. Rocky was one of the hardest hitters in history in case you forgot.

Exactly when did happen to fighter the combined size, strength and skill level of Wlad?

I'll go through my tapes again and see if I can find that fight.