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Old 01-20-2013, 06:43 PM   #166
lufcrazy
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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I don't think Levinsky was abetter fighter, but I am saying that the issue might not have been as black and white as you think at the time.

It is not enough just to look at boxrec. You have to look at how certain fights were perceived at the time, and it is oftne not as you would expect.
I agree context is massively important, so putting the Levinsky victory into the correct context indicates he fought a man who Greb just defeated (something he did during his career apparently)
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Old 01-20-2013, 06:55 PM   #167
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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I agree context is massively important, so putting the Levinsky victory into the correct context indicates he fought a man who Greb just defeated (something he did during his career apparently)
Dempsey was praised for his win over Levinsky due to its dominant nature, and the fact that he was the first to knock Levinsky out. The papers before the fight put forth the opinion that Levinsky was past his best, but do not mention the Greb fight in suport of this.
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Old 01-20-2013, 07:02 PM   #168
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Dempsey was praised for his win over Levinsky due to its dominant nature, and the fact that he was the first to knock Levinsky out. The papers before the fight put forth the opinion that Levinsky was past his best, but do not mention the Greb fight in suport of this.
It is a great victory. Just not as great as one over Greb would have been.

I'm not saying that with hindsight, I'm saying that because Greb had already beaten him.
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Old 01-20-2013, 07:06 PM   #169
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Put it this way.

Levinsky had been talked about as a possible heavyweight challenger for years. He made the transition to heavyweight earlier, and was seen as a player in that division earlier. A controvertial points loss would not necisarily catapult Geb above him.
There was absolutely nothing controversial about it. In fact, in looking for some controversy connected with it all you have been able to produce is a one-line second hand source that indicates that fewer people than thought Bradley beat Pacquiao thought Levinsky beat Greb.

Is it possible it was controversial? Yeah. But there is very, very little evidence to support that supposition. You have to wonder why, objectively, anyone would stress this second hand source ahead of primaries, or stress this second hand source in the face of numerically superior alternative secondary sources.

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Was this fight even at heavyweight (I have not been able to find out)?
Levinsky weighed 179 based upon what i have, but pre-fight the talk was of him making 165lbs. Hard to say definitively but does it really matter all that much? It was the second time Greb had beaten Levinsky, who, really, could insist that Greb was not a superior pugilist after that?

There is certainly no press on his being weight-drained or anything.
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I don't think Levinsky was abetter fighter, but I am saying that the issue might not have been as black and white as you think at the time.

It is not enough just to look at boxrec.
But is that not exactly what you have done?
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Old 01-20-2013, 07:07 PM   #170
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Seamus you seem kind of full of shit...i did the same thing you did..went and clicked on box rec, looked at dempseys record. Yes he had some barn storming fights where he destroyed no hoppers..but than you also argue that most of the name fighters were worthless wins as well, because they had lost many recent fights. I looked at the records, all those name fighters had lost close tough fights to other name fighters, and those loses had in almost all cases been close tough fights. Dempsey went in and blew them out of the water. I am not in the mood to go in and start copy and pasting records, but i will do that if need be when i wake up.
Exactly the point I made earlier, although it doesn't appear to have been addressed.

Morris was dismissed for having "lost 4 of his previous 6," but 2 of those 4 losses were also to Dempsey.

It's as if the TS simply looked at Dempsey's record on boxrec, saw 4 red boxes and 2 green boxes next to Morris' name, and then assumed he was washed up.

Yet he had scored big wins over Fulton and Moran only the year before, and had beaten Levinsky, Smith, and Pelkey the year before that. He was as legit as any contender when he fought Dempsey.
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Old 01-20-2013, 07:08 PM   #171
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Levinsky was a good result for Dempsey - it was a good knockout.

It's just interesting because this is the first time Greb beats up a future Dempsey opponent and the opponent gets the nod. It also occured with Brennan, Miske and Gibbons. They were thrashings. Greb thrashed these men.
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Old 01-20-2013, 07:17 PM   #172
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why does it take a disproportionate amount of trouble to defend dempsey's legacy on the surface? he doesn't have more irrational haters than other fighters, i don't buy that. i just don't get his standing personally...
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Old 01-20-2013, 07:17 PM   #173
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Outside of Fulton, it was a middling run to the title followed by a middling reign.
This so-called "middling" run to the title included wins over two HOFers (one by KO), and KOs of at least two other legit prime contenders in addition to Fulton. Even some of the so-called "shot name fighters" as you called them were still considered dangerous.

By what standard is that "middling"?

His so-called "middling" reign included four wins over HOFers and two other wins over legit leading contenders, and was only ended by a HOFer. I don't doubt that there are valid criticisms that can be made of his reign (i.e: his failure to fight Wills, his lengthy inactivity) but by no standard was it "middling" either.
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Old 01-20-2013, 07:19 PM   #174
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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This so-called "middling" run to the title included wins over two HOFers (one by KO), and KOs of at least two other legit prime contenders in addition to Fulton. Even some of the so-called "shot name fighters" as you called them were still considered dangerous.

By what standard is that "middling"?

His so-called "middling" reign included four wins over HOFers and two other wins over legit leading contenders, and was only ended by a HOFer. I don't doubt that there are valid criticisms that can be made of his reign (i.e: his failure to fight Wills, his lengthy inactivity) but by no standard was it "middling" either.
how many of the HOF famers were heavyweights or in their prime?
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Old 01-20-2013, 07:40 PM   #175
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Exactly the point I made earlier, although it doesn't appear to have been addressed.

Morris was dismissed for having "lost 4 of his previous 6," but 2 of those 4 losses were also to Dempsey.

It's as if the TS simply looked at Dempsey's record on boxrec, saw 4 red boxes and 2 green boxes next to Morris' name, and then assumed he was washed up.

Yet he had scored big wins over Fulton and Moran only the year before, and had beaten Levinsky, Smith, and Pelkey the year before that. He was as legit as any contender when he fought Dempsey.
yep
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Old 01-20-2013, 07:41 PM   #176
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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why does it take a disproportionate amount of trouble to defend dempsey's legacy on the surface? he doesn't have more irrational haters than other fighters, i don't buy that. i just don't get his standing personally...
yes he does
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Old 01-20-2013, 07:46 PM   #177
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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yes he does
i think he gets criticized pretty reasonably but he's a polarizing figure
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Old 01-20-2013, 08:03 PM   #178
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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how many of the HOF famers were heavyweights or in their prime?
how many heavyweight champions have ever run through a stream of hall of fame prime heavyweights before the championship?

closest you could get to that is Louis...no one else
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Old 01-20-2013, 08:06 PM   #179
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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how many heavyweight champions have ever run through a stream of hall of fame prime heavyweights before the championship?

closest you could get to that is Louis...no one else
in his career, how many great prime heavyweights did he beat? at any point?

who were his best wins? leaving out descriptions of HOW he beat people, WHO did he beat and what is their all time ranking?

i've yet to see an answer that reflects dempsey's standing
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Old 01-20-2013, 08:06 PM   #180
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Default Re: Dempsey's vaunted run to the Title

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Exactly the point I made earlier, although it doesn't appear to have been addressed.

Morris was dismissed for having "lost 4 of his previous 6," but 2 of those 4 losses were also to Dempsey.

It's as if the TS simply looked at Dempsey's record on boxrec, saw 4 red boxes and 2 green boxes next to Morris' name, and then assumed he was washed up.

Yet he had scored big wins over Fulton and Moran only the year before, and had beaten Levinsky, Smith, and Pelkey the year before that. He was as legit as any contender when he fought Dempsey.
A "big win" over Fulton? You mean the chicken who cried foul while fouling himself because the fix was in for the April Fulton-Morris affair? Or in the September return when the rough stuff caused Morris to be disqualified?

Here are some sample quotes from a Seattle Daily Times article, 1919 after he was beaten by novice Ole Anderson, giving evidence to continuing decline and/or inability to make it at the elite level. "Pertaining to the claim of foul that Carl Morris, joke heavyweight, put up on the stomach clout that Ole Anderson gave him..., let it be said that this claim of "foul" is nothing new on the part of the faint-hearted heavyweight who was well thumped... Great part of the life of the Sapulpa quince has been given over to receiving or losing decisions on fouls."

Here is another one, from the Salt Lake Telegram from 1917...
"Wonder if big Carl Morris can really fight? If he can it's a remarkable thing that in every fight he goes into there's trouble about fouls. A couple months back there was that business with Fred Fulton. Morris kept hitting Fulton below the belt and Fulton socked him back- also below the belt. Now comes Morris with a cry that in his recent fight with Tob McMahon .. referee Kennedy kept warning him that he must not his low, and said referee declared that Morris must have thought that McMahon wore his belt for a collar..."

I don't find Morris to be some great threat. Before the Dempsey losses, there were consecutive losses to Miske (a very good fighter), Fulton and McMahon and shortly before that another NWD loss to Coffey. No matter how you slice it, he was losing more than he was winning and he was trying to get his work done by either fouling or claiming foul.

Even the Dempsey KO was weird. As is readily available, there were cries of foul... which can be understood with such a quick outcome. But a few days before the fight, the Picayune is strangely calling for a first round KO. Either folks were aware of the little threat that Morris posed or there was something in the water...
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