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Old 01-20-2013, 01:13 PM   #76
dyna
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

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Originally Posted by Rico Spadafora View Post
Ali was never knocked unconscious and didn't duck anyone like Jones did.

There is no comparison between the two. Ali was a guy who would fight anyone and proved it. Jones liked to talk about fighting people then would price himself out or make ridiculous demands etc.
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Old 01-20-2013, 01:22 PM   #77
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

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Originally Posted by Rico Spadafora View Post
Ali was never knocked unconscious and didn't duck anyone like Jones did.

There is no comparison between the two. Ali was a guy who would fight anyone and proved it. Jones liked to talk about fighting people then would price himself out or make ridiculous demands etc.

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Old 01-20-2013, 01:26 PM   #78
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

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They're uneducated idiots that need putting in their place.
"Johnny come latelys"
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Old 01-20-2013, 01:30 PM   #79
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

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Roy should have retired 9 years ago.
March 2nd, 2003 to be exact.
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Old 01-20-2013, 01:36 PM   #80
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

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Originally Posted by Rico Spadafora View Post
Ali was never knocked unconscious and didn't duck anyone like Jones did.

There is no comparison between the two. Ali was a guy who would fight anyone and proved it. Jones liked to talk about fighting people then would price himself out or make ridiculous demands etc.
Amazing that Jones was so untouchable that the glass jaw wasn't descovered until after 50 fights. Massive boxing skills and natural ability. Should have quit after Ruiz. Jones wuld have had a reputation as having a good chin on top of it. taking a heavyweights punches, winning and all.
Anyway thinks for proving my point that him hanging around has tarnished his reputation.
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Old 01-20-2013, 02:00 PM   #81
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

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Amazing that Jones was so untouchable that the glass jaw wasn't descovered until after 50 fights. Massive boxing skills and natural ability. Should have quit after Ruiz. Jones wuld have had a reputation as having a good chin on top of it. taking a heavyweights punches, winning and all.
Anyway thinks for proving my point that him hanging around has tarnished his reputation.
You've made a good thread, and I agree that it has tarnished his legacy in a lot of people's eyes. But in my opinion, those people aren't hardcore fans of the sport, and they don't know Roy's history.

He solidified his legacy at 34, after he beat Ruiz, and then reclaimed his 175 belts back from Tarver.

Losing to guys like Green, Calzaghe and Lebedev at 40+ shouldn't affect his legacy in anyway.

Very few fighters retire on top, after great wins.

The majority of them fight well past their peak, and retire on losses to guys that they'd have beaten easily at their past.

People remember Ali fighting Foreman and Frazier, not Trevor Berbick.
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Old 01-20-2013, 09:30 PM   #82
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

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That's right, but Tarver lost didn't he? If he'd have beaten Harding the first time, then Roy would of had to have fought him. My opinion on this, is that Roy requested the eliminator to get under Tarver's skin and it back fired big time. I don't think he did it because he was desperately trying to avoid him. He ended up going back down from heavy to face him, and he rematched him after the first fight. I don't think he'd have done that, if he'd have been fearful of him.
I don't claim to know Jones' actual motives for declining to fight Tarver during this time - nor is it relevant to my point. The fact remains, Tarver emerged as one of Jones' two most distinguished rivals during his LHW reign (the other being Dariusz), and Jones had at least two opportunities to fight him prior to Ruiz. In the end, the best Jones actually proved he could do against his arch rival was one razor thin decision against one crushing KO loss and an embarrassing boxing lesson. That's the legacy we're left with.


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How was it realistically ever on the table?
Well, it was realistic enough that Jones himself publicly said it was on the table, and that he would consider fighting overseas and coming down to 168 to make it happen.


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How was the fight on the table in 2003?
Sorry, I was actually thinking of the tail end of 2002, before Jones had signed to fight Ruiz.


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It seems to me, that you're implying that Roy was the cause of the fights not being made.
Not at all - in fact, I acknowledged that those fighters were difficult to negotiate with.


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I agree, but again, it seems that you're laying most of the blame at Roy's door.
Again, not at all. I'm well aware that Hopkins and Calzaghe were notoriously difficult to negotiate with (as was Jones), and they probably have to share as much of the blame for those fights falling through as anyone.

However, in the end:
-Jones conceded to fight Calzaghe for a 50/50 split.
-He traveled overseas to fight Green, Lebedev, and Glazewski.
-He came down to 168 to fight Tito.

In other words, even if you believe Jones was justified in refusing to make certain concessions, he ultimately ended up making those very concessions in other fights.

He also had a chance to beat a HW long before he eventually did, when he reportedly signed to fight Douglas but later backed out. Had he followed through on that fight at that time, he would've had ample time to either pursue a career at HW or come back down to LHW and fight guys like Tarver, Dariusz, Calzaghe, etc. while he was still under 30.

To put it simply, he shouldn't have waited until he was in his early 30s to start taking the kinds of risks or making the kinds of concessions that he had previously refused to make.

I fully understand the reasons he turned down or didn't pursue certain fights, but the thread topic specifically asked to evaluate Jones' legacy, not his pride or business sense. Jones made a conscious decision to give greater priority to issues other than his legacy. He reaped the rewards of that decision, but now he has to suffer the consequences as well.

From purely the standpoint of legacy, it does hurt him that he was ultimately dominated in overdue fights against longtime rivals.


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We debated last month about DM.

DM and his team were unwilling to participate in a double header to promote the fight, and they were unwilling to go to the U.S. and fight Roy for around $5M. They instead fought Hall, Harmon and Joey De Grandis for €1-1.5M.
And as I've said before, I don't hold Jones solely responsible for the Dariusz fight failing to happen. But at the same time, Jones did have genuine chances to make that fight happen prior to the series of events you described above, and he didn't follow through on them. Once again, even if you believe Jones was justified in declining those opportunities, the fact still remains that he made a conscious choice to leave a gap in his legacy.

If Jones had simply shown the same readiness to travel overseas to fight Dariusz as he did for Green and Lebedev, then he could've settled matters right there and then.


Ali solidified his legacy by actively pursuing and making the biggest fights available (i.e: Liston, Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Foster, etc.), settling matters with upstart rivals (Terrell), and beating opponents on their home turfs (Cooper, Chuvalo, Mildenberger) and in hellish conditions (Manila). Those are things that Jones largely declined to do until he was over 30, and his legacy correspondingly suffers for it.
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Old 01-20-2013, 10:01 PM   #83
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

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Jones' "Trevor Berbick" Was Antonio Tarver 2.
No, Jones' "Berbick" was Lebedev or Glazewski.

Jones in the aftermath of the Ruiz win was the equivalent of Ali in the aftermath of the Foreman win - except Ali still managed to win those fights regardless.
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Old 01-20-2013, 10:30 PM   #84
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

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Do not get caught up in looking at the number of candles on someone's birthay cake when evaluating a fighters's peak.
If I choose to ignore Jones' age, then his losses to Tarver and Johnson should definitely be held against him, since he was only a year removed from one of his biggest and best career wins vs. Ruiz.
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Old 01-21-2013, 12:04 AM   #85
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

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You've made a good thread, and I agree that it has tarnished his legacy in a lot of people's eyes. But in my opinion, those people aren't hardcore fans of the sport, and they don't know Roy's history.

He solidified his legacy at 34, after he beat Ruiz, and then reclaimed his 175 belts back from Tarver.

Losing to guys like Green, Calzaghe and Lebedev at 40+ shouldn't affect his legacy in anyway.

Very few fighters retire on top, after great wins.

The majority of them fight well past their peak, and retire on losses to guys that they'd have beaten easily at their past.

People remember Ali fighting Foreman and Frazier, not Trevor Berbick.
Roy is one of the greatest ever. Too bad we have this Ray-Robinson-Greatest-pound-4-pound-forever indoctrination so ingrained into our media.
I'd say Middleweight Roy had a very good chance of whipping middleweight Ray Robinson's ass and I mean something like 5 out of 6 times. There I said it.
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Old 01-21-2013, 12:11 AM   #86
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

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Originally Posted by Rex Tickard View Post
No, Jones' "Berbick" was Lebedev or Glazewski.

Jones in the aftermath of the Ruiz win was the equivalent of Ali in the aftermath of the Foreman win - except Ali still managed to win those fights regardless.
Whatever. Tarver knocked enough brain cells loose that Roy was not the same fighter again. What brain cells Tarver happened to miss were number one on Glenn Johnson's hit list.

as a side note:

Much later on, washed-up Roy looked awesome against washed-up Jeff Lacy. Equal to a-one legged man beating a paraplegic.
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Old 01-21-2013, 01:32 AM   #87
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

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Tarver knocked enough brain cells loose that Roy was not the same fighter again.
You mean the way Frazier had knocked Ali's brain cells loose in the FOTC?

Doesn't say much for Jones' durability or resilience that single punch could outright run him.
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Old 01-21-2013, 03:56 AM   #88
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

RJJ was never the true undisputed champ in any division he was in.
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Old 01-21-2013, 04:35 AM   #89
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

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Ali hung around for a few beatings, but is still the top gun as far as fans and present day champions are concerned.
Now people seem to dwell on Roys opponets being subpar instead of ****ing good he really was.
I don't recall champs pitching so many shutouts with 120 score in 12 rounders. Not Duran, not hearns, not Ali, Not SRR, not SRL. Even when they were fighting 'easy' fights. Ali vs Wepner for instance.
well..ali wepner is past Ali's prime..the difference is at least ali won that one
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Old 01-21-2013, 04:35 AM   #90
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

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RJJ was never the true undisputed champ in any division he was in.
i dont know if he ever picked up all the belts..but at middleweight..with the wins over tony, and hopkins, he was
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