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View Poll Results: who is greater?
Duran 45 62.50%
Leonard 12 16.67%
Same tier 15 20.83%
Voters: 72. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-21-2013, 06:09 PM   #91
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Default Re: duran v leonard greatness comparison.

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Originally Posted by Bill Butcher View Post
I think its quite ridiculous to suggest that either one of these guys were on another tier from each other, they are unquestionably on the same tier.

I rank Duran a little higher in greatness mainly due to his LW reign & his longevity but overall there is definitely not a tier between these guys, no chance.
Totally agree.
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Old 01-21-2013, 07:32 PM   #92
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Duran is a brawler who quit. Is there anything else to be said
Yes, but not by you.
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Old 01-21-2013, 07:35 PM   #93
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Was Duran a greater lightweight than Leonard was a welterweight? No not to me. Duran, Benitez, and Hearns trump what Duran did at lightweight.

Was Duran's victory over Leonard greater than Leonard's over Hagler? Yes it was. Leonard was the favorite to win and Duran climbing up two weight classes and beating him trumps beating a old Hagler (Who I don't even think he beat).

Does Duran compare to Leonard resume wise across a whole career?
Yes he does. Duran may not have the better top wins but I think his overall resume is better than Leonard's.

Does Duran compare to Leonard skillwise in a peak for peak comparison? Hell yes. I don't think Duran is more skilled but he is up there. I rate Leonard higher than most when it comes to skill.

Does Duran's weight hopping compare to Leonard's? No, Duran's climbing up in weight was on a different level. To start from 118 pounds all the way up to light heavyweight is amazing. Leonard ****ed up for me with Lalonde.
to me Ray's welterweight reign is much greater than Duran's lightweight reign.

I think Ray's win over Hagler who was champion for 7 years and 11 or so title defenses is better than Duran's over Ray who was on the second defense of his first title

I say when a guy wins a title that is where his weight started. A guy starts in 1967 when he is 15 years old does not really mean that much as far as gaining weight and getting bigger. What hurts Duran's legacy for me is not enough wins against elites. It is a big flaw in his record. People say he is top 10 ever, but I cannot see that with his wins against elites. one win against an elite before Ray was really elite. And that statement bothers people, but the fact Ray lost was Ray as the variable not Duran.
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Old 01-21-2013, 07:36 PM   #94
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Default Re: duran v leonard greatness comparison.

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Originally Posted by Bill Butcher View Post
I think its quite ridiculous to suggest that either one of these guys were on another tier from each other, they are unquestionably on the same tier.

I rank Duran a little higher in greatness mainly due to his LW reign & his longevity but overall there is definitely not a tier between these guys, no chance.
same tired. Great fighters. Ray was more versatile and proved more in his wins, but Duran was a tougher individual mentally and had a long career. Same as JCC Sr.
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Old 01-21-2013, 07:51 PM   #95
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Default Re: duran v leonard greatness comparison.

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Buchanan is not an ATG fighter. A very good HOF fighter and a nice guy. I met him once. There is no way a win over a green Leonard in June of 1980 when Ray fought his fight is the best win of the fab 4. Ray at the time was on the second defense of his first title reign. Just the fact he fought Duran's fight because of a comment Duran made to Ray shows Ray's immaturity. Ray was not yet in this prime when Duran bet him in June of 1980, and Duran did not dominate him and Ray actually fought Duran's fight. Ray later learned the whole game and how to fight his fight and style and to get considerations in fights for psychological advantage.

Best win of the fab 4? Honestly? It could be Hagler over Hearns just by how Marvin put his all mentally and physically and denied losing or being hurt. Best knockout is Hearns over Duran. Biggest upset is Leonard over Hagler. Actuallyt the Duran/Leonard fights turned out to be the most onesided fights of the fab 4 matchups.
I only reached as far as the green highlighted part & realised it was pointless to read anymore, a green fighter doesn`t dominate & hand a master like Benitez his first loss, behave yourself, Leonard was as prime as it gets when Duran beat him (& I have no bias either way, both are amongst my all time top 10 favourite fighters)
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Old 01-21-2013, 08:05 PM   #96
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I only reached as far as the green highlighted part & realised it was pointless to read anymore, a green fighter doesn`t dominate & hand a master like Benitez his first loss, behave yourself, Leonard was as prime as it gets when Duran beat him (& I have no bias either way, both are amongst my all time top 10 favourite fighters)
a more prime Ray would have beaten Benitez better without the beating he took. He couldn't go to the post fight celebration Ray was so sore. Hearns on the other hand had a tough fight with Benitez, but outboxed him in a way Ray didn't but could have a year or two later. Also Benitez fought great at 154. Ray fought Benitez on the inside.
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Old 01-21-2013, 08:27 PM   #97
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[quote=Hands of Iron;14619763]He really sells Leonard short with that nonsense. Aside from Benitez, he hadn't taken out any world beaters (as if it didnt prove enough), but putting numerous contenders on his record as quickly as he did looks good on him and gives him stronger case for what he may be, the second greatest welterweight of all-time. He was thoroughly built for the division with the skills and ability to match like very few others.

Then again, he's most interested in discrediting Duran above all else.[/quote]

If MAG was a medical proffesor lecturing students on the evolution & causes of syphilis he'd find a way to include Duran

When you look back at SRL's rise to prominence it's truly remarkable, he was the Golden Boy, so much was expected of him, the pressure was huge, the heights were dizzy & the potential fall abyssal.

He fought near on every month, where the flying **** do you see that today!!! There was absolutly no hiding place for him, all roads led up & the road got steeper & steeper, no place for a feint heart here, he had to be as mentally strong as there could possibly come to navigate that route at that speed, mega pressure on the shoulders of such a young man.

He was the compleat package in the madison ave sense, but to navigate yer way to the top back then in such a short time took collosal mental resolve juxtaposed with the well concealed vicious killer instinct. There was **** all green about SRL once he was in position to challenge Benitez, Angelo Dundee made sure of that!!!

He could have fought Hearns in 78/79 but Dundee ****ed that idea off rapid. Dundee new when SRL was ready for Benitez or Cuevas & in just over 3 years from Olympic Gold you've got the finished polished article with the whole superstar $$$$$$ earning world in front of him.

There was no gimmi's for Leonard on the up, his rise was breathless & expected, he was under the magnifying glass big time & beating Benitez in the manner he did sez it all. Skill/Grit/Brains & a well concealed pychotic will to win.

There were plenty of the old school scribes who though him just a media creation, a phoney, but you get that from all previous incumbant generations. Plenty saw through the Princess Diana fluttering eyelash pouting lips persona hence the dislike of the man at the time by some. But he earned his shot at Benitez & to get there in just over 3 years is incredible, he was indeed the finished article, a Champion indeed. Until he ran into a better one in Montreal

SRL was 1st & foremost, Start 2 Finish a mega $$$$$$$ generating machine & to get those big $$$$ back then you'd better be able to produce the goods. He was done no favours! He became champion because he was good enough to become one & yer don't beat the likes of Benitez by fluke.
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Old 01-21-2013, 08:32 PM   #98
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Default Re: duran v leonard greatness comparison.

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a more prime Ray would have beaten Benitez better without the beating he took. He couldn't go to the post fight celebration Ray was so sore. Hearns on the other hand had a tough fight with Benitez, but outboxed him in a way Ray didn't but could have a year or two later. Also Benitez fought great at 154. Ray fought Benitez on the inside.
Beating Benitez made Ray PRIME
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:02 PM   #99
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Ray was smart. He knew when he won not to give a rematch where the guy can maybe turn it around.
That counts against Leonard when were talking about Greatness at the elite level of the sport.

Remember Duran gave Leonard that chance to redeem himself.
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:10 PM   #100
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I see your point. 40 fights in a whole career is not that many, although Delahoya has about 40 himself doesn't he?
Yeah but nobody puts DelaHoya anywhere near Duran in the alltime rankings. He`s not even in the same state.
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:19 PM   #101
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Default Re: duran v leonard greatness comparison.

Leonard, Whitaker, Saldivar, Sanchez all come to mind as far as getting the job done nicely in roughly 40-45 career fights.
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:19 PM   #102
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Beating Benitez made Ray PRIME
I don't see that. A loss does much more for a young fighter than a win. Duran after Dejesus, or Hearns after Leonard, and Ray after Duran. make Ray prime anymore than beating Cuevas made Thomas Hearns prime or beating Buchanan made Duran prime. And Duran lost to Esteban soon after winning his first title like Ray did to Duran, and look how Duran won the last two fights like Ray won the last two. That is significant.
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:21 PM   #103
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Yeah but nobody puts DelaHoya anywhere near Duran in the alltime rankings. He`s not even in the same state.
but careers can have 40 fights. Evander Holyfield won his first title against Qawi at 15 fights, yet I know Ray didn't have many fights after he won his first title compared to most. Hearns had 40 fights after he fought Cuevas, and Ray had something like 14. But he had the wins which the other guys couldn't get.
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:23 PM   #104
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That counts against Leonard when were talking about Greatness at the elite level of the sport.

Remember Duran gave Leonard that chance to redeem himself.
Duran probably thought Ray would fight the same fight. Ray fought totally different from the get-go and was moving his feet and coming inside and out not setting against Duran. Ray started to set in rounds 7 and 8 when Duran started to slow down even more and that is when Duran quit.
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:26 PM   #105
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If MAG was a medical proffesor lecturing students on the evolution & causes of syphilis he'd find a way to include Duran

When you look back at SRL's rise to prominence it's truly remarkable, he was the Golden Boy, so much was expected of him, the pressure was huge, the heights were dizzy & the potential fall abyssal.

He fought near on every month, where the flying **** do you see that today!!! There was absolutly no hiding place for him, all roads led up & the road got steeper & steeper, no place for a feint heart here, he had to be as mentally strong as there could possibly come to navigate that route at that speed, mega pressure on the shoulders of such a young man.

He was the compleat package in the madison ave sense, but to navigate yer way to the top back then in such a short time took collosal mental resolve juxtaposed with the well concealed vicious killer instinct. There was **** all green about SRL once he was in position to challenge Benitez, Angelo Dundee made sure of that!!!

He could have fought Hearns in 78/79 but Dundee ****ed that idea off rapid. Dundee new when SRL was ready for Benitez or Cuevas & in just over 3 years from Olympic Gold you've got the finished polished article with the whole superstar $$$$$$ earning world in front of him.

There was no gimmi's for Leonard on the up, his rise was breathless & expected, he was under the magnifying glass big time & beating Benitez in the manner he did sez it all. Skill/Grit/Brains & a well concealed pychotic will to win.

There were plenty of the old school scribes who though him just a media creation, a phoney, but you get that from all previous incumbant generations. Plenty saw through the Princess Diana fluttering eyelash pouting lips persona hence the dislike of the man at the time by some. But he earned his shot at Benitez & to get there in just over 3 years is incredible, he was indeed the finished article, a Champion indeed. Until he ran into a better one in Montreal

SRL was 1st & foremost, Start 2 Finish a mega $$$$$$$ generating machine & to get those big $$$$ back then you'd better be able to produce the goods. He was done no favours! He became champion because he was good enough to become one & yer don't beat the likes of Benitez by fluke.
Good stuff.

Managed to be complimentary without compromising your beliefs. For the record, Ray's an asshole and one truly conniving cunt of a cut throat. He was just a ****ing brilliant welterweight who nabbed some big wins above his class against Hagler and Kalule. All that other garbage counts for nothing. Pretty much the real deal 77-82 though, all-time level. Always kind of felt the more SRL's abilities and accomplishments are fleshed out at 147, it only makes Duran's win greater... And I do consider it pretty much the best ever. It secures his top ten spot for me.
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