Just how bad was Haglar robbed if at all against SRL?

[TheSouthpaw]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

Boxers tend to be PRETTY self-aware. I've never met one who wasn't reasonably frank about his career in private.

I can all but guarantee Marvin knows EXACTLY what he would have done different.

I sure hope so!..And I hope he would do EVERYTHING different...

[TheSouthpaw]

Originally Posted by Waynegrade

I definitely feel MMH fought the wrong fight against SRL. Giving away the first 4 rds, while trying to outbox SRL, orthodox. And, not truly taking it to SRL , southpaw, cutting off the ring, and taking it inside to SRL. He did some of it later on in the fight. But, he kind of left the door open for Ray by not fighting to HIS strengths. I didn`t feel it was a definitive win, some rds close to call. However, SRL worked the rds carefully, lots ofg



boxing savvy and squeaked out the decision. I think if they had gotten the rematch, we would have seen a different Hagler, even though he was near the end of the line. Goody told me they pushed hard for the rematch, but when they realized it wasn`t happening, Hagler packed his gloves ...

I would have been all for a rematch, but wasnt it Haglar that said he'd never fight again?

[MagnaNasakki]

That's the shitty thing about boxing- You get one shot. Nobody guarantees each other rematches out of contract. You want to make the question moot by WINNING.

Ray won with every single disadvantage. He didn't owe Marvin much of anything. And before anybody says "The title shot!", Hagler wanted Ray as badly as vice versa, if not moreso.

Sometimes, and I know firsthand, it comes down to wishing you'd just thrown more punches. For Hagler, maybe this was a good indication to him, deep down, that he was in fact slowing down and fading.

[gregor]

As much as I like Hagler, he was the one to "rob" himself before the fight (though, in retrospect, it was good for him as he retired in good health).

He was the champion after all, and still he agreed for anything SRL wanted. Larger ring, larger gloves, and 12 rounds instead of traditional (at that time) 15. All of those changes were obviously favouring Leonard. I believe without those changes Hagler would give much better fight.

[TheSouthpaw]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

That's the shitty thing about boxing- You get one shot. Nobody guarantees each other rematches out of contract. You want to make the question moot by WINNING.

Ray won with every single disadvantage. He didn't owe Marvin much of anything. And before anybody says "The title shot!", Hagler wanted Ray as badly as vice versa, if not moreso.

Sometimes, and I know firsthand, it comes down to wishing you'd just thrown more punches. For Hagler, maybe this was a good indication to him, deep down, that he was in fact slowing down and fading.

Well said M!...I wonder what the odds were in this fight? ..But I do agree with you Ray did win with every disadvantage.

[Bill1234]

Originally Posted by TheSouthpaw

Haglar goin crazy!?...I guess so..Im sure to this day Marvin is beating himself up for his performance. He probably would never admit it but he has to know he went about that fight all wrong. And hes had to live with it 20 somethiong years

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

Boxers tend to be PRETTY self-aware. I've never met one who wasn't reasonably frank about his career in private.

I can all but guarantee Marvin knows EXACTLY what he would have done different.

That's probably why he wanted the rematch so badly. He felt he did enough (which wasn't much, especially by Hagler standards) to win the first time, and I agree with him. In a rematch Hagler would've been all over Leonard and done what he should've done the first time.

I think Ray knew it too and knew that he got off very, very easy in their one and only encounter and did not do a rematch because of it.

[Bill1234]

Originally Posted by TheSouthpaw

I would have been all for a rematch, but wasnt it Haglar that said he'd never fight again?

Yes, but at the same time he was really pushing for a rematch with Ray. It was the only fight he was interested in. Had he beaten Ray in a rematch he still would've probably retired.

[MagnaNasakki]

Originally Posted by Bill1234

That's probably why he wanted the rematch so badly. He felt he did enough (which wasn't much, especially by Hagler standards) to win the first time, and I agree with him. In a rematch Hagler would've been all over Leonard and done what he should've done the first time.

I think Ray knew it too and knew that he got off very, very easy in their one and only encounter and did not do a rematch because of it.

To be fair, Ray was rusty, and not back in the groove.

It's all conjecture. I'm reasonably confident in a rematch, Ray would have been better, too.

Again, SRL had every disadvantage. His situation would only improve in an immediate sort of rematch situation.

[Addie]

Even with all of the stipulations that, yes, did indeed favour Leonard, Hagler still had no business losing to Leonard in 1987. A mountainous achievement by Sugar. Glorious.

[MagnaNasakki]

Originally Posted by Addie

Even with all of the stipulations that, yes, did indeed favour Leonard, Hagler still had no business losing to Leonard in 1987. A mountainous achievement by Sugar. Glorious.

Hagler surrendered them pretty likely. Clearly must have not thought they made a difference.

In hindsight, allowing a rusty fighter off a long layoff a MUCH shorter distance(3 rounds is quite a bit) was the height of foolishness.

[Addie]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

Hagler surrendered them pretty likely. Clearly must have not thought they made a difference.

In hindsight, allowing a rusty fighter off a long layoff a MUCH shorter distance(3 rounds is quite a bit) was the height of foolishness.

Indeed. He wanted Leonard's name on his CV, and he also wanted the pay day. I suppose he thought the fight wouldn't last that long anyhow. Ray hadn't fought in such a long time. It's completely understandable Hagler wouldn't have been all that worried. I'd probably have done the same thing just to get the man in the ring.

[MagnaNasakki]

Originally Posted by Addie

Indeed. He wanted Leonard's name on his CV, and he also wanted the pay day. I suppose he thought the fight wouldn't last that long anyhow. Ray hadn't fought in such a long time. It's completely understandable Hagler wouldn't have been all that worried. I'd probably have done the same thing just to get the man in the ring.

I've taken a man lightly like that before. It ended for me about the same way.

Forgot what an old buddy of my used to say, "Remember, the other guy is a trained fighter, and thus perfectly capable of f***ing a man up."

It ain't ever easy in there, nor a sure thing. Sometimes, we pay for our arrogance with parts of our legacies.

[TheSouthpaw]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

I've taken a man lightly like that before. It ended for me about the same way.

Forgot what an old buddy of my used to say, "Remember, the other guy is a trained fighter, and thus perfectly capable of f***ing a man up."

It ain't ever easy in there, nor a sure thing. Sometimes, we pay for our arrogance with parts of our legacies.

Taking a man lightly is goin against the 123 and ABC's of boxing!...I did some fighting as well..worst mistake you can make!

[Addie]

Originally Posted by TheSouthpaw

Taking a man lightly is goin against the 123 and ABC's of boxing!...I did some fighting as well..worst mistake you can make!

In the case of Hagler-Leonard, it was almost inevitable. Ray hadn't fought for 3 years in a professional ring. How can he hope to go 12 rounds with the Middleweight king? It won't happen. Hagler was as dedicated as they come, but he was also very arrogant when it came to his only ability. I'm currently reading Four Kings. Whenever there is a quote from Hagler he's being very bullish about his own ability, and the chances of his opponent beating him. I don't think he was worried in the slightest entering the ring with Leonard in 1987. As you say, a mistake.

[salsanchezfan]

Originally Posted by Addie

In the case of Hagler-Leonard, it was almost inevitable. Ray hadn't fought for 3 years in a professional ring. How can he hope to go 12 rounds with the Middleweight king? It won't happen. Hagler was as dedicated as they come, but he was also very arrogant when it came to his only ability. I'm currently reading Four Kings. Whenever there is a quote from Hagler he's being very bullish about his own ability, and the chances of his opponent beating him. I don't think he was worried in the slightest entering the ring with Leonard in 1987. As you say, a mistake.

That was certainly the feeling at the time. It was almost like it was some sort of circus sideshow exhibition rather than a serious middleweight title defense. By then, Hagler had just started coming down a bit from the heady success and huge money he'd only really started making two years earlier. I think by then, he'd gotten a bit jaded and maybe disinterested, like he'd climbed all the mountains he needed to climb. This fight seemed then like just an excuse to make a lot of money and "make the papers" as it were. Not a soul thought Ray would win. No one.


Except for revisionist historians on this board twenty-five years after the fact. They were pretty savvy, I guess.