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View Poll Results: who is greater?
Duran 45 62.50%
Leonard 12 16.67%
Same tier 15 20.83%
Voters: 72. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-22-2013, 03:48 PM   #151
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Default Re: duran v leonard greatness comparison.

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Originally Posted by Addie View Post
You noticed that too then?
My posts tend to give off a vibe of being pro-SRL over Duran at times. That's really not the angle at all. So why go to lengths at defending SRL's quality and all time standing, as a Welterweight in particular. Why would I do that?
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:48 PM   #152
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Default Re: duran v leonard greatness comparison.

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Originally Posted by orriray59 View Post
The thing that makes the SRL victory as special as it is, is the fact that Leonard didn't lose again until he was well past it fighting at weight classes he shouldn't have been fighting at.
Nobody beat Leonard like that in his prime, or close to it.
It tends to be forgotten, but Duran-Leonard I was a close fight. Duran's victory over Barkley was perhaps more convincing.

Quote:
My posts tend to give off a vibe of being pro-SRL over Duran at times. That's really not the angle at all. So why go to lengths at defending SRL's quality and all time standing, as a Welterweight in particular. Why would I do that?
Absolutely.

In championing Ray Leonard, you're also championing Duran. Only a world class fighter of the highest quality could have defeated a 147lbs Leonard. He was that good.
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:53 PM   #153
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Default Re: duran v leonard greatness comparison.

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And posting up some basic rankings for info purposes swayed you to that extent? or was it something else in the thread.
No, nothing particular in this thread.
Just the fact that when considering the lightweight division in its historical entirety, I see a lot of great champions had a lot of fierce competition. It's a stacked division.
The reason so many of them had short reigns and few defences is because of the quality of challenger. Duran hit a bit of a lower spot. I do believe welterweight was a tougher division during that period, and to his credit he went up, beat some contenders and beat the champion.
Still, as a LW he was amazing.
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:59 PM   #154
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Default Re: duran v leonard greatness comparison.

I believe Benitez is overrated as a welterweight champion.
Leonard too - perhaps by extension.
And, yes, as great as it was, Duran's win over Leonard is overrated, or at least it's given a 'special' rating for the wrong reasons, imo.
Any time a lightweight champ moves up and captures the welter crown it's a big deal, imo, especially from a good or great fighter.
I think people tend to put SRL almost on a par with SRRobinson though, or something like that.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:01 PM   #155
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Default Re: duran v leonard greatness comparison.

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Originally Posted by lora
And posting up some basic rankings for info purposes swayed you to that extent? or was it something else in the thread.


That's really all they are too. Fun though at times, and they tend to mean the world over in the General. Have you seen the rankings of various Mayweather opponents? Its the stuff of legends.


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Originally Posted by Addie View Post
It tends to be forgotten, but Duran-Leonard I was a close fight. Duran's victory over Barkley was perhaps more convincing.

Absolutely.

In championing Ray Leonard, you're also championing Duran. Only a world class fighter of the highest quality could have defeated a 147lbs Leonard. He was that good.


Hit the jackpot here, Addie. What's more is that it's just as grounded in real truth as it is an agenda.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:01 PM   #156
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Default Re: duran v leonard greatness comparison.

Benitez wasn't an outstanding Welterweight, I agree with you, but Leonard dominated him. I think Benitez won 2-3 rounds on my card. The manner of victory is everything.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:01 PM   #157
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Default Re: duran v leonard greatness comparison.

Think Duran Barkley was a fair bit closer than Duran Leonard.

Leonard never held the initiative against Duran for more than two rounds circa 5,6,7 or so.

barkley on the other hand was pumping the jab into his face for a good half of the bout.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:04 PM   #158
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Default Re: duran v leonard greatness comparison.

out of interest N, was that fighters that were ranked at the time they fought Duran and Leonard by ring? or by WBA\WBC ?
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:08 PM   #159
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Default Re: duran v leonard greatness comparison.

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Originally Posted by orriray59 View Post
The thing that makes the SRL victory as special as it is, is the fact that Leonard didn't lose again until he was well past it fighting at weight classes he shouldn't have been fighting at.
Yeah, but he only fought 12 more times in his entire career, that's including up to 1997 Hector Camacho.
If you want to talk about prime, then SRL maybe fought 4 - 7 more times in anything you'd call his prime.
Maybe, just maybe, he would have lost a few more if he'd been a more active fighter ?
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:08 PM   #160
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Default Re: duran v leonard greatness comparison.

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Originally Posted by lora View Post
Think Duran Barkley was a fair bit closer than Duran Leonard.

Leonard never held the initiative against Duran for more than two rounds circa 5,6,7 or so.

barkley on the other hand was pumping the jab into his face for a good half of the bout.
Fair enough.

I had Duran beating Barkley by 2-3 points. he swept the last few rounds and scored a heavy knockdown. In contrast to the fight with Leonard, it was him giving away the last remaining rounds.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:13 PM   #161
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Default Re: duran v leonard greatness comparison.

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out of interest N, was that fighters that were ranked at the time they fought Duran and Leonard by ring? or by WBA\WBC ?
The RING. Those were at the time of the fight rankings as well, not Annual's as retrieved off boxrec. Two posters KOKid and hhascup have all the monthly issues in hard copy, and I've gotten them for a small assortment of different fighters but it's a bit of a hassle I think I'm causing by requesting any more. Nice for info purposes, though.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:18 PM   #162
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Default Re: duran v leonard greatness comparison.

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Originally Posted by Addie View Post
Fair enough.

I had Duran beating Barkley by 2-3 points. he swept the last few rounds and scored a heavy knockdown. In contrast to the fight with Leonard, it was him giving away the last remaining rounds.

True, but he took it easy the last couple of rounds because he'd held the initiative over nearly all of the previous ones.Bit of a stupid risk, but it mdae the fight seem closer than it really was imo.Over 12 Duran had pumped him, bar a few of those mid-rounds where it seemed Ray might turn the tide.

Scoring that fight for Ray is a vulgar, entirely unbecoming thing to do i say.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:20 PM   #163
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Default Re: duran v leonard greatness comparison.

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Originally Posted by NWS View Post
The RING. Those were at the time of the fight rankings as well, not Annual's as retrieved off boxrec. Two posters KOKid and hhascup have all the monthly issues in hard copy, and I've gotten them for a small assortment of different fighters but it's a bit of a hassle I think I'm causing by requesting any more. Nice for info purposes, though.
cheers.It's certainly interesting.

Wasn't there a thread about it actually just a few months back?I should have paid more attention to it.Might dig it up if there is one.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:22 PM   #164
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Default Re: duran v leonard greatness comparison.

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Originally Posted by lora View Post
True, but he took it easy the last couple of rounds because he'd held the initiative over nearly all of the previous ones.Bit of a stupid risk, but it mdae the fight seem closer than it really was imo.Over 12 Duran had pumped him, bar a few of those mid-rounds where it seemed Ray might turn the tide.
Or...maybe...Leonard was just coming on? Excuse me for saying so, but it just seems as though Ray finds it difficult to get much credit on the Classic. Ray turns it on in the last remaining rounds against Duran. But no, it was Duran consciously taking it easy. Leonard overcame the odds to beat Hagler despite a 3 year lay off. No, Hagler was cheated, and if he wasn't, then he fought the wrong fight and a rematch would have been totally different. Bleh.

In any event, I had Duran beating Barkley more clearly on the cards than I had him beating Leonard in Montreal. Opinions will vary.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:23 PM   #165
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Default Re: duran v leonard greatness comparison.

Here's Ray Robinson for shits n giggles since he and the subject of ratings has come up.

SUGAR RAY ROBINSON's TOP 10 RATED OPPONENTS

Sugar Ray Robinson first appears in The Ring ratings on March 11, 1941. He debuts at No. 7 in the lightweight division.

1941: Sammy Angott (No. 1 LW) (@135)
1941: Maxie Shapiro (No. 9 LW) (@135)
1941: Fritzie Zivic (No. 1 WW)
-- Robinson debuts at No. 1 in the welterwight ratings after win over Zivic.
1942: Fritzie Zivic (No. 3 WW)
1942: Norman Rubio (No. 9 WW)
1942: Marty Servo (No. 7 WW)
1942: Sammy Angott (World LW Champ) (@ 147)
1942: Tony Motisi (No. 9 WW)
1942: Jake LaMotta (No. 10 MW)
1942: Izzy Janazzo (No. 9 WW)
1942: Izzy Janazzo (No. 9 WW)
1943: Jake La Motta (No. 6 MW) - LOSS
1943: Jackie Wilson (No. 2 WW)
1943: Jake La Motta (No. 1 MW)
1943: Henry Armstrong (No. 2 WW)
1944: Vic Dellicurti (No. 10 MW)
1945: Tommy Bell (No. 6 WW)
1945: Jake LaMotta (No. 3 MW)
1945: Jose Basora (No. 6 MW) - DRAW
1945: Jimmy McDaniels (No. 6 WW)
1945: Jake LaMotta (No. 1 MW)
1946: Sammy Angott (No. 6 WW)
1946: Joe Curcio (No. 9 WW)
1946: Tommy Bell (No. 2 WW)
-- Wins vacant Welterweight title.
1947: Georgie Abrams (No. 3 MW)
1947: Jimmy Doyle (No. 6 WW)
-- Defends Welterweight title
1948: Bernard Docusen (No. 1 WW)
-- Defends Welterweight title
1948: Kid Gavilan (No. 1 WW)
1949: Kid Gavilan (No. 1 WW)
-- Defends Welterweight title
1949: Steve Belloise (No. 2 MW)
-- Robinson debuts at No. 1 at middleweight after win over Belloise. He still continues to hold the welterweight championship.
1950: George Costner (No. 2 WW)
1950: Robert Villemain (No. 2 MW)
1950: Charley Fusari (No. 5 WW)
-- Defends Welterweight title.
1950: Robert Villemain (No. 4 MW)
1951: Jake LaMotta (World MW Champion)
-- Wins Middleweight title
-- Robinson vacates welterweight title after win over LaMotta.
1951: Randy Turpin (No. 1 MW) - LOSS
-- Loses Middleweight title
1951: Randy Turpin (World MW Champion)
-- Wins Middleweight title
1952: Carl "Bobo" Olson (No. 5 MW)
-- Defends Middleweight title
1952: Rocky Graziano (No. 9 MW)
-- Defends Middleweight title
1952: Joey Maxim (World LHW Champion) - LOSS
-- Robinson retires for 30 months after loss to Maxim.
1955: Rocky Castellani (No. 2 MW)
1955: Carl "Bobo" Olson (World MW Champion)
-- Wins Middleweight title
1956: Carl "Bobo" Olson (No. 1 MW)
-- Defends Middleweight title
1957: Gene Fullmer (No. 1 MW) - LOSS
-- Loses Middleweight title
1957: Gene Fullmer (World MW Champion)
-- Wins Middleweight title
1957: Carmen Basilio (World WW Champion) (@160)
-- Loses Middleweight title
1958: Carmen Basilio (World MW Champion)
-- Wins Middleweight title
1959: No fights vs. top contenders
1960: Paul Pender (No. 8 MW) - LOSS
-- Loses Middleweight title
1960: Paul Pender (World MW Champion) - LOSS
1960: Gene Fullmer (No. 1 MW) - DRAW (Not really)
1961: Gene Fullmer (No. 1 MW) - LOSS
1961: Denny Moyer (No. 9 MW)
1962: Denny Moyer (No. 9 MW) - LOSS
1962: Terry Downes (No. 3 MW) - LOSS
1963: Ralph Dupas (No. 3 WW) (@160)
1963: Joey Giardello (No. 3 MW) - LOSS
1964: No fights vs. top 10 contenders
1965: Stan Harrington (No. 9 MW) - LOSS
1965: Joey Archer (No. 4 MW) - LOSS
-- Robinson retires after loss to Archer.


He really just wasn't all that.
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