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Old 01-22-2013, 08:06 PM   #46
jowcol
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Default Re: since it was the heat that made SRR lose

Joey is an ATG non-champ. He had a set of whiskers and was a defensive specialist. Interesting that, after the subsequent Archie wars, he took a (mere) 8 rounder against the up and coming Patterson then, went back to 10 rounders before his career smoldered. Perhaps John Garfield could give us some insight into that Patterson s****.
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Old 01-22-2013, 08:29 PM   #47
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Default Re: since it was the heat that made SRR lose

I just think it's kinda silly to think this was Maxim's gameplan.. Who the F has a plan to be utterly embarrassed by a much smaller guy.. and lose pretty much every single round in convincingly fashion. Where is the plan there? I'm going to look like I'm getting tooled the whole fight.. then.. then.. I will come on in the 14th and 15th rounds? I mean come on people, that wasn't part of his plan. He was getting outboxed in emphatic fashion... and there is nothing about that fight that leads me to believe Maxim would win most of the time.. ****.. even some of the time in optimal conditions. There would be a point of Maxim did SOMETHING that fight.. or actually hurt Robbie in some way.. then I could go yet in better conditions I could see him dealing out even more pain. He dealt out zero pain except to Robbie's hands.
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Old 01-22-2013, 08:29 PM   #48
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Default Re: since it was the heat that made SRR lose

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Originally Posted by jowcol View Post
Joey is an ATG non-champ. He had a set of whiskers and was a defensive specialist. Interesting that, after the subsequent Archie wars, he took a (mere) 8 rounder against the up and coming Patterson then, went back to 10 rounders before his career smoldered. Perhaps John Garfield could give us some insight into that Patterson s****.
i was ringside at Eastern Parkway Arena that night, j. It was filled with very vocal Patterson supporters, who thought he was the second coming of Ray Robinson, as I did.

Maxim consistently beat Floyd to the punch with machine gun jabs, 'n lead rights; though not as hard Floyd's, spot on target.

Floyd threw eye-catching flurries, to the delight of his fans, but were largely nullified by Maxim's hunched shoulders, 'n Maxim marched forward, not letting him get set.

In my view, Maxim, the cunning vet, won decisively, in spite of the loud booing from Patterson loyalists. At that stage of Floyd's career, he bit off more than he could chew.
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Old 09-09-2013, 03:25 PM   #49
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Default Re: since it was the heat that made SRR lose

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Art Rust Jr always maintained the fix was in in this fight.
It's possible, but more likely, Ray bit off more than he could chew.He should have prepared himself for the circumstances better.Anyways, it worked out, because if he did win, Moore would have knocked him out anyway for the belt.
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Old 09-09-2013, 03:58 PM   #50
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Default Re: since it was the heat that made SRR lose

They should have fought again but Robinson was no LHW. He could have probably beat Maxim in a rematch but bigger stronger fighters like Moore would have been a problem. Maxim had the chin (only stopped once in a fluke), Moore had the punch. Who knows? Robinson was also getting old by this time.

I give some credit to Maxim for the win unlike others though. He was durable, went the distance with Ezzard Charles 5 times. Fought guys like Jimmy Bivins, Lloyd Marshall, Archie Moore, Jersey Joe Walcott, and Floyd Patterson among others. Robinson was never gonna stop Maxim.
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Old 09-09-2013, 04:36 PM   #51
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Default Re: since it was the heat that made SRR lose

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They should have fought again but Robinson was no LHW. He could have probably beat Maxim in a rematch but bigger stronger fighters like Moore would have been a problem. Maxim had the chin (only stopped once in a fluke), Moore had the punch. Who knows? Robinson was also getting old by this time.

I give some credit to Maxim for the win unlike others though. He was durable, went the distance with Ezzard Charles 5 times. Fought guys like Jimmy Bivins, Lloyd Marshall, Archie Moore, Jersey Joe Walcott, and Floyd Patterson among others. Robinson was never gonna stop Maxim.
Well spoken

Although I wouldn't classify his stoppage loss as a "fluke". Curtis Sheppard, boxing's deadly "Hatchetman", never stopped anyone on a fluke. When he nailed you, you were hurt badly or knocked-out.

"I told him all week he was carryin' that left too low" Maxim's manager Johnny Papke
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Old 09-09-2013, 05:02 PM   #52
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Default Re: since it was the heat that made SRR lose

I thought Patterson beat Maxim. Maxim certainly didnt win decisively.

I agree with Kurupt in that the idea that Maxim planned to lose every round is pretty bogus. I mean watch that fight. Maxim is clueless throughout. Its a typical Robinson fight when he is in against an overmatched durable opponent in that its boring but easy to score. Maxim always used to say "I didnt have AC in my corner." Thats true but the smaller man always has to work harder as well just by the nature of catchweight matches (helllooooo mayweather). That fight was exactly what it looked like. A much better, smaller fighter with more tools in his tool box taking on a bigger but less talented fighter. The smaller fight boxed rings around him in oppressive heat and finally just wore out. Its true Maxim didnt have AC but had that fight been held in the AC does anyone really doubt that Robinson dominates the next two rounds and takes an easy decision? Its not like Maxim did ANYTHING to make Robinson suddenly collapse.
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Old 09-09-2013, 05:22 PM   #53
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Default Re: since it was the heat that made SRR lose

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Who has suggested that Maxim did not win fair and square? The bone of contention is your premise that Maxim may have won without the heat wave.

EVERY REPORTER WHO WAS RINGSIDE STATED THAT NOT ONLY WAS RAY SKATING THE FIGHT BUT THAT WITHOUT THE EXTREME TEMPERATURE ROBINSON WOULD HAVE BECOME A TRIPLE CHAMP.

I have the Ring Magazine report of the fight and it emphatically endorses this opinion.
Pointless?Tto be honest I think your input on this subject is pointless, it isnt even playing devil's advocate it is bloody minded revisionism carried to absurdity.
I watched a documentary on SRR last night and his son says that Robbie was very ill after the fight and hadn't properly recovered 6 months later. It was 100% down to the heat. Even the referee collapsed! Maxim had a steady style suited to fighting in high temperatures. A mover, like Robinson, had no chance to last in 105 degree heat.
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Old 09-10-2013, 09:28 AM   #54
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Default Re: since it was the heat that made SRR lose

I always say the same thing when this discussion comes along :

Maxim deserves full credit. He was the last man standing. It was a 15 round fight, the championship distance.
It was Robinson who couldn't go the distance in the heat fighting that way.
Robinson ran himself into the ground. Maxim was the guy catching punches yet he stood up.
Maxim outlasted him.

It's ONLY because it's Sugar Ray Robinson that people go to great lengths to almost reverse the winner-loser roles in this fight. Favouritism is a wonderful thing.
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Old 09-10-2013, 09:30 AM   #55
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Default Re: since it was the heat that made SRR lose

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Originally Posted by ribtickler68 View Post
I watched a documentary on SRR last night and his son says that Robbie was very ill after the fight and hadn't properly recovered 6 months later. It was 100% down to the heat. Even the referee collapsed! Maxim had a steady style suited to fighting in high temperatures. A mover, like Robinson, had no chance to last in 105 degree heat.

Why did he have to be a "mover" though ?
Surely, his priority is to LAST the distance and win the fight. Why did he feel the need to run and move so much ?
He's such a clever fighter, did he get his tactic wrong ?
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Old 09-10-2013, 09:34 AM   #56
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Default Re: since it was the heat that made SRR lose

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Sometimes boxing is a marathon.

SRR couldn't hack the distance. Maxim was the worthy winner.

Exactly.
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:11 AM   #57
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Default Re: since it was the heat that made SRR lose

Anyone who's read my sentiments 'bout SRR, (who gave me precious boxing tips at Stillman's Gym) knows his special place in my heart. No more dramatic STONE KILLER to ever lace on gloves...but Maxim deserves full props for stopping Sugar that night in Yankee Stadium.

As written ad infinitum, Joey had to contend with the same 112+heat 'n humidity(plus ring lights) that had the ref carried out delirious after 10.

My dad 'n I were were soppin' wet, ringside. It was a war zone -- people droppin' like flies.

Much as I wanted Sugar to win ('n without question he would have had he coasted to the final bell), he lost fair 'n square-- no excuses.
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Old 09-11-2013, 07:36 PM   #58
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Default Re: since it was the heat that made SRR lose

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Originally Posted by john garfield View Post
Anyone who's read my sentiments 'bout SRR, (who gave me precious boxing tips at Stillman's Gym) knows his special place in my heart. No more dramatic STONE KILLER to ever lace on gloves...but Maxim deserves full props for stopping Sugar that night in Yankee Stadium.

As written ad infinitum, Joey had to contend with the same 112+heat 'n humidity(plus ring lights) that had the ref carried out delirious after 10.

My dad 'n I were were soppin' wet, ringside. It was a war zone -- people droppin' like flies.

Much as I wanted Sugar to win ('n without question he would have had he coasted to the final bell), he lost fair 'n square-- no excuses.
It's not really an excuse, though, JG; it's a reason. I envy you greatly for being there!
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Old 09-11-2013, 07:40 PM   #59
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Default Re: since it was the heat that made SRR lose

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Why did he have to be a "mover" though ?
Surely, his priority is to LAST the distance and win the fight. Why did he feel the need to run and move so much ?
He's such a clever fighter, did he get his tactic wrong ?
I don't know if he got it wrong tactically or his style was so ingrained that he just went with it. What I meant was Maxim had a more economical style than Robbie and it was more suited to the the conditions. That is not to decry Maxim in any way, though. He was an excellent fighter in his own right as I am sure you know.
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Old 09-11-2013, 08:24 PM   #60
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Default Re: since it was the heat that made SRR lose

You have to give Maxim some credit for the win. The heat was the same for him as it was for Robinson. He just didn't expend as much energy as Ray and either paced himself accordingly or just fought his usual fight. I wonder why Robinson didn't pace himself better though. He must've known he was way ahead and faster than Maxim so why not slow it down a bit and not throw so many punches? Was he trying for the KO?.If he was in that kind of heat against a bigger durable opponent then Ray wasn't using ring smarts to his advantage. Maxim took it and was on his feet until the end which is maybe why there wasn't a rematch. Maybe Robinson realized that he didn't have the punch at LHW to really hurt the bigger fighters. Afetr all, he was at his best as a WW. Who knows?
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