duran v leonard greatness comparison.

[lora]

Originally Posted by Addie

Fair enough.

I had Duran beating Barkley by 2-3 points. he swept the last few rounds and scored a heavy knockdown. In contrast to the fight with Leonard, it was him giving away the last remaining rounds.

True, but he took it easy the last couple of rounds because he'd held the initiative over nearly all of the previous ones.Bit of a stupid risk, but it mdae the fight seem closer than it really was imo.Over 12 Duran had pumped him, bar a few of those mid-rounds where it seemed Ray might turn the tide.

Scoring that fight for Ray is a vulgar, entirely unbecoming thing to do i say.

[lora]

Originally Posted by NWS

The RING. Those were at the time of the fight rankings as well, not Annual's as retrieved off boxrec. Two posters KOKid and hhascup have all the monthly issues in hard copy, and I've gotten them for a small assortment of different fighters but it's a bit of a hassle I think I'm causing by requesting any more. Nice for info purposes, though.

cheers.It's certainly interesting.

Wasn't there a thread about it actually just a few months back?I should have paid more attention to it.Might dig it up if there is one.

[Addie]

Originally Posted by lora

True, but he took it easy the last couple of rounds because he'd held the initiative over nearly all of the previous ones.Bit of a stupid risk, but it mdae the fight seem closer than it really was imo.Over 12 Duran had pumped him, bar a few of those mid-rounds where it seemed Ray might turn the tide.

Or...maybe...Leonard was just coming on? Excuse me for saying so, but it just seems as though Ray finds it difficult to get much credit on the Classic. Ray turns it on in the last remaining rounds against Duran. But no, it was Duran consciously taking it easy. Leonard overcame the odds to beat Hagler despite a 3 year lay off. No, Hagler was cheated, and if he wasn't, then he fought the wrong fight and a rematch would have been totally different. Bleh.

In any event, I had Duran beating Barkley more clearly on the cards than I had him beating Leonard in Montreal. Opinions will vary.

[NWS]

Here's Ray Robinson for shits n giggles since he and the subject of ratings has come up.

SUGAR RAY ROBINSON's TOP 10 RATED OPPONENTS

Sugar Ray Robinson first appears in The Ring ratings on March 11, 1941. He debuts at No. 7 in the lightweight division.

1941: Sammy Angott (No. 1 LW) (@135)
1941: Maxie Shapiro (No. 9 LW) (@135)
1941: Fritzie Zivic (No. 1 WW)
-- Robinson debuts at No. 1 in the welterwight ratings after win over Zivic.
1942: Fritzie Zivic (No. 3 WW)
1942: Norman Rubio (No. 9 WW)
1942: Marty Servo (No. 7 WW)
1942: Sammy Angott (World LW Champ) (@ 147)
1942: Tony Motisi (No. 9 WW)
1942: Jake LaMotta (No. 10 MW)
1942: Izzy Janazzo (No. 9 WW)
1942: Izzy Janazzo (No. 9 WW)
1943: Jake La Motta (No. 6 MW) - LOSS
1943: Jackie Wilson (No. 2 WW)
1943: Jake La Motta (No. 1 MW)
1943: Henry Armstrong (No. 2 WW)
1944: Vic Dellicurti (No. 10 MW)
1945: Tommy Bell (No. 6 WW)
1945: Jake LaMotta (No. 3 MW)
1945: Jose Basora (No. 6 MW) - DRAW
1945: Jimmy McDaniels (No. 6 WW)
1945: Jake LaMotta (No. 1 MW)
1946: Sammy Angott (No. 6 WW)
1946: Joe Curcio (No. 9 WW)
1946: Tommy Bell (No. 2 WW)
-- Wins vacant Welterweight title.
1947: Georgie Abrams (No. 3 MW)
1947: Jimmy Doyle (No. 6 WW)
-- Defends Welterweight title
1948: Bernard Docusen (No. 1 WW)
-- Defends Welterweight title
1948: Kid Gavilan (No. 1 WW)
1949: Kid Gavilan (No. 1 WW)
-- Defends Welterweight title
1949: Steve Belloise (No. 2 MW)
-- Robinson debuts at No. 1 at middleweight after win over Belloise. He still continues to hold the welterweight championship.
1950: George Costner (No. 2 WW)
1950: Robert Villemain (No. 2 MW)
1950: Charley Fusari (No. 5 WW)
-- Defends Welterweight title.
1950: Robert Villemain (No. 4 MW)
1951: Jake LaMotta (World MW Champion)
-- Wins Middleweight title
-- Robinson vacates welterweight title after win over LaMotta.
1951: Randy Turpin (No. 1 MW) - LOSS
-- Loses Middleweight title
1951: Randy Turpin (World MW Champion)
-- Wins Middleweight title
1952: Carl "Bobo" Olson (No. 5 MW)
-- Defends Middleweight title
1952: Rocky Graziano (No. 9 MW)
-- Defends Middleweight title
1952: Joey Maxim (World LHW Champion) - LOSS
-- Robinson retires for 30 months after loss to Maxim.
1955: Rocky Castellani (No. 2 MW)
1955: Carl "Bobo" Olson (World MW Champion)
-- Wins Middleweight title
1956: Carl "Bobo" Olson (No. 1 MW)
-- Defends Middleweight title
1957: Gene Fullmer (No. 1 MW) - LOSS
-- Loses Middleweight title
1957: Gene Fullmer (World MW Champion)
-- Wins Middleweight title
1957: Carmen Basilio (World WW Champion) (@160)
-- Loses Middleweight title
1958: Carmen Basilio (World MW Champion)
-- Wins Middleweight title
1959: No fights vs. top contenders
1960: Paul Pender (No. 8 MW) - LOSS
-- Loses Middleweight title
1960: Paul Pender (World MW Champion) - LOSS
1960: Gene Fullmer (No. 1 MW) - DRAW (Not really)
1961: Gene Fullmer (No. 1 MW) - LOSS
1961: Denny Moyer (No. 9 MW)
1962: Denny Moyer (No. 9 MW) - LOSS
1962: Terry Downes (No. 3 MW) - LOSS
1963: Ralph Dupas (No. 3 WW) (@160)
1963: Joey Giardello (No. 3 MW) - LOSS
1964: No fights vs. top 10 contenders
1965: Stan Harrington (No. 9 MW) - LOSS
1965: Joey Archer (No. 4 MW) - LOSS
-- Robinson retires after loss to Archer.


He really just wasn't all that.

[lora]

Originally Posted by Addie

Or...maybe...Leonard was just coming on? Excuse me for saying so, but it just seems as though Ray finds it difficult to get much credit on the Classic. Ray turns it on in the last remaining rounds against Duran. But no, it was Duran consciously taking it easy. Leonard overcame the odds to beat Hagler despite a 3 year lay off. No, Hagler was cheated, and if he wasn't, then he fought the wrong fight and a rematch would have been totally different. Bleh.

In any event, I had Duran beating Barkley more clearly on the cards than I had him beating Leonard in Montreal. Opinions will vary.

I hear what you're saying, but that's just my opinion as well.Thought it looked clear Duran had laid off the gas and was even taunting him at times.

I've no problems with giving Ray credit as a fighter.Or Criticising either of them.

[KuRuPT]

Originally Posted by Addie

Or...maybe...Leonard was just coming on? Excuse me for saying so, but it just seems as though Ray finds it difficult to get much credit on the Classic. Ray turns it on in the last remaining rounds against Duran. But no, it was Duran consciously taking it easy. Leonard overcame the odds to beat Hagler despite a 3 year lay off. No, Hagler was cheated, and if he wasn't, then he fought the wrong fight and a rematch would have been totally different. Bleh.

In any event, I had Duran beating Barkley more clearly on the cards than I had him beating Leonard in Montreal. Opinions will vary.

I had Barkley closer than SRL.. and I honestly can't see it any other way. You had SRL only losing by one round?

[Unforgiven]

Originally Posted by orriray59

Whereabouts do you think SRL stands as a welterweight?

He was great. Probably top 5.

I'm not an expert on the division historically but guys like Robinson, Armstrong, Gavilan, Napoles, Britton, Burley, Griffith make for stiff competition.

Even so I think SRL's welter work is often 'embellished'. I'm not convinced Hearns was virtually invincible at the weight as some claim, I believe Benitez is a little overrated at 147, and SRL needed two attempts to get past Duran.
I stress that this IS a VERY impressive resume, but at the same time I feel he's trading off a few very strong results that get magnified a bit too much. It would have been interesting to see how he would have staved off challlenges at welterweight from the emerging crop of the 1980s (Curry, Starling, McCrory etc.). But the eye injury etc.

[orriray59]

Originally Posted by lora

True, but he took it easy the last couple of rounds because he'd held the initiative over nearly all of the previous ones.Bit of a stupid risk, but it mdae the fight seem closer than it really was imo.Over 12 Duran had pumped him, bar a few of those mid-rounds where it seemed Ray might turn the tide.

Scoring that fight for Ray is a vulgar, entirely unbecoming thing to do i say.

Yeah, it really shocked me.
Here's the link. Apparently another person has posted a scorecard and evened it out, so now only 50% believe SRL won.
One guy had Duran only 6 rounds out of 15.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[orriray59]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

He was great. Probably top 5.

I'm not an expert on the division historically but guys like Robinson, Armstrong, Gavilan, Napoles, Britton, Burley, Griffith make for stiff competition.

Even so I think SRL's welter work is often 'embellished'. I'm not convinced Hearns was virtually invincible at the weight as some claim, I believe Benitez is a little overrated at 147, and SRL needed two attempts to get past Duran.
I stress that this IS a VERY impressive resume, but at the same time I feel he's trading off a few very strong results that get magnified a bit too much. It would have been interesting to see how he would have staved off challlenges at welterweight from the emerging crop of the 1980s (Curry, Starling, McCrory etc.). But the eye injury etc.

[ETM]

Originally Posted by DoctorIron

What the hell.

You are not getting it. I try to keep my cool because this is the classics but sometimes I just can't.

BUSTER DOUGLAS KNOCKED out Prime Tyson. He beat the shit out of Tyson.
Rahman lucky punched a Past Prime Lewis.
Sanders dominated Wladimir.
Brewster beat Wladimir
PURRITY beat Wladimir.

This is a terrible analogy. Comparing Duran`s victory over Leonard to Purrity, Douglas and Sanders? Your right Im not getting it.

Im gonna tell you this one time. Stay off the drugs son.

[Boxed Ears]

It seems like a whole mess of people on Classic don't know when someone is trolling them, no matter how obvious they make it.

[LittleRed]

Originally Posted by Boxed Ears

It seems like a whole mess of people on Classic don't know when someone is trolling them, no matter how obvious they make it.

I know. Its clear that the only guy in here not being crazy is the good Doctor. Everyone else: Duran was no better than Carlos Baldomir. Accept it.

[Gesta]

Originally Posted by Addie

Or...maybe...Leonard was just coming on? Excuse me for saying so, but it just seems as though Ray finds it difficult to get much credit on the Classic. Ray turns it on in the last remaining rounds against Duran. But no, it was Duran consciously taking it easy. Leonard overcame the odds to beat Hagler despite a 3 year lay off. No, Hagler was cheated, and if he wasn't, then he fought the wrong fight and a rematch would have been totally different. Bleh.

In any event, I had Duran beating Barkley more clearly on the cards than I had him beating Leonard in Montreal. Opinions will vary.

Ray was a great WW & a great Boxer.

Ray joy boy fans are secretly waiting for a moment that they can crown Ray as the better than Duran & SRR and not be made fun of and so they make a quirp here and a remarke there , shit like Ray was green in the first bout with Duren, he fought Durans fight and bullshit like he was more complete than SRR, the best / second best WW ever etc..... and understandingly people point out that Ray does not have very many defences , had to wait until Hagler was gone to fight him & had to fight an out of shape Duran to beat him the mutiple retirements etc....and they get called Ray haters.

[lora]

Originally Posted by Boxed Ears

It seems like a whole mess of people on Classic don't know when someone is trolling them, no matter how obvious they make it.

then you get MAG, who doesn't even know he's trolling himself.

[Titan1]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

Was Duran a greater lightweight than Leonard was a welterweight?

Was Duran's victory over Leonard greater than Leonard's over Hagler?

Does Duran compare to Leonard resume wise across a whole career?

Does Duran compare to Leonard skillwise in a peak for peak comparison?

Does Duran's weight hopping compare to Leonard's

For casual fans it seems Leonard it the default choice for greater boxer. For hardcore fans it seems Duran is default choice for greater boxer.

I've seen lots of debate on the trilogy between these two but not as much debate on who should be greater and, more importantly, why.

Yes, more dominance also.
Yes, because one was approaching his prime, and another slightly out of it.
Surpasses Leonards's
A little bit less, slight margin of error.
Really Surpasses Leonard's weight hopping, he did more with less.
Still think Leonard's the greater boxer, not by much.
I'm a SRL man, but after the 77-82 version, he was somewhat chump change.As afterfore mentioned, Duran did more with Less, and against some real tough comp.