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Old 01-23-2013, 07:58 PM   #76
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Default Re: ATGs who don't look impressive on film.

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Originally Posted by Synthetic Decay View Post
Watching Monzon is like getting stabbed in the eyes.
For once i agree with you
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:26 PM   #77
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Default Re: ATGs who don't look impressive on film.

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Originally Posted by Lord Tywin View Post


Maybe but you also have to understand the limitations of his opposition.

Red, your answer reminds me of how some jazz snobs react when someone trashes their music. Have you ever seen that episode of the Simpson's where the daughter is at a jazz concert and a guy next to her is complaining "Sounds like she's hitting a baby with a cat." She answers "You have to listen to the notes she's not playing." The guy next to her answer's "I can do that at home."

That pretty much sums up how I feel about Monzon.
This.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:28 PM   #78
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Default Re: ATGs who don't look impressive on film.

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ouch! I don't want to come off as too assholeish and think you're a really good honest poster Sal, but are you sure you gave him enough of a fair watch on his own merits without letting the comparisons between him and Sanchez as mexico's top featherweights cloud or agitate you a bit?.

Fair play if he just isn't for you and of course it would follow if you're not impressed with him you wouldn't be impressed with who he beat either.

I think stuff like Saldivar v Ramos, Laguna, Seki rematch, first two Winstone fights, Famechon fight are all feather classics full of dynamic two-way skill and back and forth exchanges.

For Winstone i can see how he's not for everyone as well.Being a semi-standup fighter and not being any kind of puncher despite often fighting like one, though imo he was a really good textbook fighter with a superb left hand.I'd compare him as a feather to the often underrated Ruben Castillo, though imo Winstone was a better jabber and a bit sharper overall.

His name was made on his skill being highly rated as he worked his way through various contenders and then the first two Saldivar fights which were as big as barrera vs Morales back then.Not a long prime though.a lot of the footage of him is past his best, but the fights with the talented baby luis and er, less talented Eduardo Guerrero are good fights from his best days htat are up on youtube.Gives a more rounded view on his abilites, as saldivar was a tough stylistic match being a southpaw staight puncher against orthodox jabber, even putting talent aside.

No, that's fair questioning. I guess like some here, I took the thread's meaning and went a little further with it than was probably intended. I think most could watch a Monzon or Saldivar and see quite clearly that they have quality about them. I'm not thinking to myself "God, this Saldivar is awful" when I watch him. I just don't necessarily appreciate what I see.

I admit freely that this is simply a blind spot on my part; I wish I knew what to say about that.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:28 PM   #79
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Default Re: ATGs who don't look impressive on film.

Griffith aged very well imo, right to nearly the end of his career he was still half-decent.I don't think he had dropped off much against Monzon compared even to the Tiger fight.His timing, balance were still strong.The real key areas.

Similar kind of gap as say the Laguna that fought Ortiz to fought Buchanan.Lost the edge of his physical side, but still a really excellent fighter.

Benvenuti the same.a bit past peak but he was ALWAYS inconsistent in non-title fights.That first Monzon fight was the best he had fought since the first Griffith bout imo.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:55 PM   #80
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Default Re: ATGs who don't look impressive on film.

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but nobody seems to remember that Valdez chased Monzon for something like four years, forced Monzon to have one of his titles stripped because Monzon refused to meet him and never adequately explained why, and then only got a fight with Monzon amid speculation that he would never fight again or be the same fighter after his car accident.

This is bad if true, well before my time.

Did i mention Monzon lacks any type of artistry or finesse, oh i did, oh well i'll mention it again.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:57 PM   #81
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Default Re: ATGs who don't look impressive on film.

Jack Johnson. I get why he was an ATG...But some of his more famous victims look better (or at least have a more modern, aesthetically pleasing style) than Lil' Arthur.
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:23 PM   #82
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Default Re: ATGs who don't look impressive on film.

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Jack Johnson.
I cant agree with that, Johnson was amazing for his time
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:46 PM   #83
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Default Re: ATGs who don't look impressive on film.

I can see the criticism of Johnson. Im not a big fan of his style but I think he gives most anybody problems as well.

Guys like Johnson, who know how to slow down a fight and minimize action to their advantage are tough to beat. Like Hopkins. Different style but the same approach.
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:22 PM   #84
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Default Re: ATGs who don't look impressive on film.

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Originally Posted by Lord Tywin View Post


Maybe but you also have to understand the limitations of his opposition.

Red, your answer reminds me of how some jazz snobs react when someone trashes their music. Have you ever seen that episode of the Simpson's where the daughter is at a jazz concert and a guy next to her is complaining "Sounds like she's hitting a baby with a cat." She answers "You have to listen to the notes she's not playing." The guy next to her answer's "I can do that at home."

That pretty much sums up how I feel about Monzon.

Such tripe... Benvenuti, Benvenuti, Napoles, Briscoe, Griffith, Griffith, Valdez, Valdez... a solid, solid line-up. Valdez would rule today. Even Licata wasn't a bad little fighter, beat Griffith, went on to beat Rossman, came into the fight with one loss in 50 something fights.

Monzon erased the division, mostly in a time of single belt. Undefeated over 84 bouts, 14 title defenses, again mostly in an era of a single belt.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:05 AM   #85
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Default Re: ATGs who don't look impressive on film.

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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
Such tripe... Benvenuti, Benvenuti, Napoles, Briscoe, Griffith, Griffith, Valdez, Valdez... a solid, solid line-up. Valdez would rule today. Even Licata wasn't a bad little fighter, beat Griffith, went on to beat Rossman, came into the fight with one loss in 50 something fights.

Monzon erased the division, mostly in a time of single belt. Undefeated over 84 bouts, 14 title defenses, again mostly in an era of a single belt.
Im not sure if thats tripe or you just have the blinders on but a lot of guys would have beaten that "solid lineup" (outside of Valdez) at middleweight. But to each his own.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:14 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Theron View Post
I cant agree with that, Johnson was amazing for his time
If Constantly clinching and throwing the occasional right hand is 'amazing'.

Looks the pits on film when you consider he's fighting blokes much smaller for the best part.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:16 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
Such tripe... Benvenuti, Benvenuti, Napoles, Briscoe, Griffith, Griffith, Valdez, Valdez... a solid, solid line-up. Valdez would rule today. Even Licata wasn't a bad little fighter, beat Griffith, went on to beat Rossman, came into the fight with one loss in 50 something fights.

Monzon erased the division, mostly in a time of single belt. Undefeated over 84 bouts, 14 title defenses, again mostly in an era of a single belt.
I've never thought much of Valdez. Massive puncher obviously, but round snoozer and not all that. B level.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:33 AM   #88
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Default Re: ATGs who don't look impressive on film.

Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, and Max Baer. A lot of times I see these guys favored against a lot of other ATG heavyweights and I just don't see it.

Jack Johnson has never impressed me and sometimes I think I'm watching something completely different than what others saw. He looked downright sloppy many times to me and seemed to be pretty crude considering he's considered as one of the best heavyweight ring technicians.

I can only imagine the criticism guys like Frazier, Lewis, Liston, Holmes, or any heavyweight ATG not named Dempsey, Louis, or Ali would get if they got decked by a middleweight and got up to swing incredibly sloppily and end up falling over from misbalance from throwing the punch.

People always mention how easily he beat his opposition, but honestly I think his opposition was piss poor looking on film, too and I think Dempsey, Louis, Frazier, Marciano, and litterally just about every heavyweight champ post Johnson would have walked all over the oponents too.

Jack Dempsey I find the most impressive out of those who don't really impress me on film. His tenacity is very evident and his quick headmovement coupled with his foot movement is good, but his technique is just down right awful most of the time and he telegraphed many of his punches.

I see many people favoring him over guys like Louis, Liston, Frazier, Marciano, Holmes, Lewis, Tyson, and Klitschko and I just don't see it. He's another where I can only imagine the criticism others aside from Louis, Johnson, Ali and Dempsey would have gotten had they strugged so mightily with a person as unskilled as Firpo.

Max Baer looked the worst out of all of the "great" heavyweight to me. His technique made guys like 70s Foreman and Marcos Maidana look like text book, Joe Louis esque punchers technique wise. He didn't even try to hide his lack of technique and he often reverted to blatant fouling the included strong back hands to get at his oponents.

His raw power in his right hand was evident, but I see him losing to just about every heavyweight champ barring guys like Marvin Hart, Tommy Burns, and Jess Willard.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:35 AM   #89
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Default Re: ATGs who don't look impressive on film.

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Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
If Constantly clinching and throwing the occasional right hand is 'amazing'.

Looks the pits on film when you consider he's fighting blokes much smaller for the best part.
I agree completely.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:36 AM   #90
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Default Re: ATGs who don't look impressive on film.

I was gonna say Jack Johnson too, but I remember he's actually pretty damn impressive when he opens up and lets his hands go !
It's easy to fall asleep before it gets to that bit though.
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