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Old 01-22-2013, 04:38 PM   #46
prime
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
To be fair to SRL, I don't think Duran (who he went 2-1 against) would make the top 20 either.
He'd be above SRL though, in the top 30.
No Durán???! Packy in???!

Off the top of your head, you did include Durán in your first post.

If Durán is out, there is no hope for Ray.

Leonard gets very high marks from me on scalps and as a fighter. The knock against him is his inconsistent activity and his blatantly choreographed comebacks.

But, in the ring--where nobody can help you, he proved better than a prime Hearns, a prime Benitez, undisputed champion Marvin Hagler, got instant revenge from Durán, and got off the canvas to win a light-heavyweight belt.

A superb success ratio for so relatively few fights.

For decades, Jim Jeffries has been considered one of the all-time greats, on half the number of fights.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:43 PM   #47
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

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This is interesting, if Leonard had fought a rematch with Hearns at 154, if he fought a younger Hagler, Mike Mccallum, Donald Curry, Michael Nunn could Leonard have won these fights? If he lost to one or more of these guys how would it affect his legacy?

For what it's worth, I'm a huge Leonard fanboy, just playing devil's advocate and asking questions
If he did all that he'd probably be about a tenth as good as Harry Greb !
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:56 PM   #48
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

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No Durán???! Packy in???!

Off the top of your head, you did include Durán in your first post.

If Durán is out, there is no hope for Ray.
Duran possibly in, possibly out.
He's not top 10.

Packey McFarland I need to know more about. It seems he beat Freddie Welsh, Jack Britton and Mike Gibbons, a couple of those multiple, and maybe lost 1 fight early in a career of over 100 fights !

Quote:
Leonard gets very high marks from me on scalps and as a fighter. The knock against him is his inconsistent activity and his blatantly choreographed comebacks.

But, in the ring--where nobody can help you, he proved better than a prime Hearns, a prime Benitez, undisputed champion Marvin Hagler, got instant revenge from Durán, and got off the canvas to win a light-heavyweight belt.

A superb success ratio for so relatively few fights.

For decades, Jim Jeffries has been considered one of the all-time greats, on half the number of fights.
True enough. Ray Leonard was super-great.
But there's more than 20 super-great fighters jostling for the ranking. There might be more like 50 !
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:58 PM   #49
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

Top 3 Welter
Top 5 All time Talent
Not in my top 20 ATG
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Old 01-22-2013, 05:01 PM   #50
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

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That, in addition to the actual challenges Sugar did face, is possibly the worst Murderer's Row a champion could possibly face. That would have been remarkable. I don't think any guy in that weight range ever could have navigated it undefeated.

I agree, Robinson and Leonard were both great fighters, who were fortunate to have other great opponents around them to show just how great they were. I would have loved to see Floyd Mayweather face even one opponent as good as a prime Thomas Hearns, Kid Gavilan or Mike Mccallum
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Old 01-22-2013, 05:03 PM   #51
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

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I agree, Robinson and Leonard were both great fighters, who were fortunate to have other great opponents around them to show just how great they were. I would have loved to see Floyd Mayweather face even one opponent as good as a prime Thomas Hearns, Kid Gavilan or Mike Mccallum
He had a fighter just as great in front of him, and didn't pull the trigger.

That's on both him and Manny. They were eachother's only legendary calibre opponents, and they ducked and dodged the fight.
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Old 01-22-2013, 05:18 PM   #52
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

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He had a fighter just as great in front of him, and didn't pull the trigger.

That's on both him and Manny. They were eachother's only legendary calibre opponents, and they ducked and dodged the fight.

Yep, and that will always be held against both. Which is a shame for Floyd, because I think he would have beaten Pacquiao by a clear unanimous decision back in 2009. How highly do you rate Floyd H2H? How would he have done against Duran or Chavez?
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Old 01-23-2013, 01:13 PM   #53
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

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True enough. Ray Leonard was super-great.
But there's more than 20 super-great fighters jostling for the ranking. There might be more like 50 !
True. In that jostling of super-greats, Ray is worthy of consideration.

McFarland perhaps lost his title shot by managing only a draw in the second Welsh fight.

McLarnin beat great men, but smaller men. He was 1 for 3 against a fellow great his size in Ross.

Not many revered greats have Ray's credentials, even with twice as many fights.
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Old 01-24-2013, 07:11 PM   #54
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

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Those are the fights he missed out on. Had he won them, he'd might have near equalled the greatest Sugar. That would be an unparalleled resume.
He definitely had the challenges in front of him. he'd rather fight someone like Lalonde. His sheer size impresses the hell out of his fans

The real fighters even asked Sugar for a fight. Each time he declined. It was always one reason or another. at first it was his eye. after so many comebacks, that excuse no longer made sense until finally he stopped making excuses why this fighter and why not that fighter. the media would never want to press him or make him uncomfortable

For me, Sugar will never get near the top 20. he lacks the record & accomplishments of a Carlos Monzon. He doesnt have the undefeated record of a Marciano nor the defenses of a Panama Al Brown. He doesnt have the great wins of a Gene Tunney. His record at 147 is eclipsed, practically non existent, next to that of Napoles, another Monzon victim

Even most of the top light heavies, I have ranked well ahead of him-Archie Moore, Charles, Roy Jones, Galindez, and even Saad Muhammud

and he sure wasn't no Ali

His wins arent even that impressive and he failed miserably against a young but inexperienced Terry Norris who, he was heavily favored to beat. In the end, he was just another good champion on an impressive but short win streak

I would rank him over fighters like Cervantes, Benitez, Ayub Kalule, people like that
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Old 01-24-2013, 07:13 PM   #55
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

You rank Saad ahead of Leonard, Rooster?
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Old 01-24-2013, 07:19 PM   #56
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

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You rank Saad ahead of Leonard, Rooster?
I rank Saad over Leonard becuz he was more impressive during his reign than Leonard was at his. he made better use of his time during his two years. more defenses. His wins were more impressive

I rank Sugar slightly over Pryor even tho Leonard turned him down becuz Leonard has a little more championship experience in big fights

pryor tho was way more impressive beating Arguello to a pulp, elevating savagery to a level not seen in decades
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Old 01-24-2013, 09:26 PM   #57
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

within the 20 i think yeah, top 25 at least
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:04 PM   #58
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

He has a case for being number 1 on the basis of his top 5 wins arguably being the best top 5 wins in history and his dominance of beating everyone he faced until he was past it. If you regard those criteria as most important he does have a case, but it's not cool to give Leonard props around here. Duran, Langford and Greb, super cool, Leonard not cool, that's how it works
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Old 01-25-2013, 01:35 AM   #59
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

Top 50.


Borderline.


There are tons of great fighters, Leonard does not have the longevity to hang with many of them.

Great for time, just not long enough, and always avoided fighting other ATG unitl after they had declined.

Best fights... Duran 1.... Lost
Hearns 1..... Great victory, but beaten most of fight
Benitez...... Great win.

Hearns 2.... * years late, and lost
Duran 2.... Great strategy of catching Duran after parties wieght gain.
Hagler 1.... Waited till Hagler was NO LONGER an ATG. Good fighter still but not great. Won on cards ( I thought he lost )

He had tremendous talent and intelligence. Great adaptability. Great fighter.

But top 20..... NO
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:10 AM   #60
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Leonard; worthy of being a top 20 ATG

I wouldn't rank Benitez, Hearns or Duran among the top 10 welterweights of all-time. Not even sure if any of them get in the top 15.

People talk a lot about these 'top wins' for Sugar Ray Leonard. Yeah, they are enough to say he was one of the great welterweights. But they don't turn him into a pound-for-pound marvel of the type of Greb, Langford, Robinson. Nowhere near. Not even close.

Therefore a lot must resting on his 'miracle' comeback against Hagler, a tremendous achievement but I fight I thought he narrowly lost.
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