Sailor Tom v Irish Jerry?

[Surf-Bat]

Originally Posted by mcvey

How about the weights for Choynski 158lbs ,

He weighed 158 vs. Sharkey?

Originally Posted by mcvey

McCormack 159lbs

He weighed 159 vs. Sharkey?

Originally Posted by mcvey

and Thorne 157.75lbs , are they all wrong too?

Who is Thorne?

Originally Posted by mcvey

I question Sharkey's durability after he was twice one punch stopped by a light heavyweight

He wasn't. Go read the reports. Sharkey took quite a hammering, absorbing round after round of hellacious shots from a man who hurt, dropped and stopped heavyweights during his career. To hold this as some sort of proof that Sharkey's durability was questionable is "farcicle".

Originally Posted by mcvey

and dropped twice by a middleweight.

Already addressed. You need to explain to me why NOBODY at the time questioned Tom's chin after this incident. Obviously it was something that the people at the time knew McCoy was capable of. Why didn't McCoy drop or even HURT Sharkey in the 7 more rounds that followed?

You don't think McCoy could drop Quarry if he was able to hammer him for 3 rounds without any consequential return? He absolutely could (though I admit Jerry would nail and stop the Kid).

Originally Posted by mcvey

My point is Quarry could do what McCoy did, to suggest otherwise is farcical.

Of course. I could see one of Quarry's sharp counters scoring a flash knockdown over Sharkey. Maybe even 2. Absolutely.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

Watch Quarry vs Brassell. Brassel who has but 5 ko's in 25 fights, really had Quarry in trouble in round one. I do not think Shavers lasted long enough to land anything significant on Quarry, and IMO the stoppage could be viewed as pre-mature.

I never saw Quarry vs Mac Foster, so no comment there.

Brassell dropped Quarry after the bell ended round one. Quarry took him out at 1.32of round two. Brassell had ten kos in 25 fights .

Otherwise you are correct.


Oh My Lord, My Sweet Lord.

[Mendoza]

McVey,

Since you either don't watch or own the tapes and films, I think you would be best served to shut up and listen to those who have seen them. Quarry was in fact in serious trouble vs a journeyman.

[Surf-Bat]

Easy there boys

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Surf-Bat

He weighed 158 vs. Sharkey?




He weighed 159 vs. Sharkey?




Who is Thorne?





He wasn't. Go read the reports. Sharkey took quite a hammering, absorbing round after round of hellacious shots from a man who hurt, dropped and stopped heavyweights during his career. To hold this as some sort of proof that Sharkey's durability was questionable is "farcicle".



Already addressed. You need to explain to me why NOBODY at the time questioned Tom's chin after this incident. Obviously it was something that the people at the time knew McCoy was capable of. Why didn't McCoy drop or even HURT Sharkey in the 7 more rounds that followed?

You don't think McCoy could drop Quarry if he was able to hammer him for 3 rounds without any consequential return? He absolutely could (though I admit Jerry would nail and stop the Kid).



Of course. I could see one of Quarry's sharp counters scoring a flash knockdown over Sharkey. Maybe even 2. Absolutely.

I gave you three examples of weights for McCoy taken from fights all within the same year as the Sharkey fight all have McCoy within the middleweight limit. I asked you if these were incorrect as you implied the one for the Sharkey fight may have been ,you made no comment ,or none of any substance.
I asked you which heayweights, apart from O Donnell, McCoy kod, you didnt reply. Just repeated that he dropped ,and kod heavyweights.
WELL PLEASE NAME THEM .

You talk about the Sharkey fight as though the Sailor had his arms tied whilst McCoy was teeing off on him. I think Quarry was a better boxer than Sharkey, hit as hard and had a chin as good , he may have been more susceptible to facial cuts, I've never read that Sharkey was much troubled by them, in what other areas is Sharkey superior?
Nobody questioned Jones, chin till he was kod.
Below a recount of the Sharkey/ Fitz fights from someone who was there , TWO ONE PUNCH KOS

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

ps. Something you don't like about my spelling of FARCICAL?

[Surf-Bat]

Originally Posted by mcvey

ps. Something you don't like about my spelling of FARCICAL?

Actually, looking at it now I can honestly say that I forgot how to spell it myself . I just put it in quotes to quote you, not make fun. You know me better than that. We lock horns sometimes, even get heated. But it never crosses the line into disrespect like that. Apologies if it read that way.

I will answer the post tomorrow this weekend. Battling the flu. Bedtime.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Surf-Bat

Actually, looking at it now I can honestly say that I forgot how to spell it myself . I just put it in quotes to quote you, not make fun. You know me better than that. We lock horns sometimes, even get heated. But it never crosses the line into disrespect like that. Apologies if it read that way.

I will answer the post tomorrow this weekend. Battling the flu. Bedtime.

I'd like to read them, always value your input . Sorry about the flu, hope you feel better on Saturday.

[Bummy Davis]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

Watch Quarry vs Brassell. Brassel who has but 5 ko's in 25 fights, really had Quarry in trouble in round one. I do not think Shavers lasted long enough to land anything significant on Quarry, and IMO the stoppage could be viewed as pre-mature.

I never saw Quarry vs Mac Foster, so no comment there.

I had ringside seat to Quarry vs Lyle,Foster,Shavers and Jerry got hit but he had a solid set of whiskers and was a master at fighting the Big Slow guys (I like his chances vs Foreman) Quarry had trouble with only the Greater fighters of his era Ali and Frazier for the most part and could be speed but I think he was just put in with great as opposed to very good

Another fight I went to was Quarry -Alexander and although not renowned Joe Alexander landed a ferocious shot on Jerry and I saw sparks fly off Jerry's butt when he hit the floor but to his credit he got up and dispatched of Joe

Sailor Tom was stopped a few times and no matter how hard we stretch it could we really say Jeffries, Fitz and the gang could endure a ring with Jerry's trophies ...dont get me wrong Fitz could whack but how long can he take the whacks from Jerry &co

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

McVey,

Since you either don't watch or own the tapes and films, I think you would be best served to shut up and listen to those who have seen them. Quarry was in fact in serious trouble vs a journeyman.

I started buying fight films from the US in the late 60's, mostly the Blackhawk collections on Super 8mm.
You were still in your Father's ball bag.

BOX REC
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]203[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]19913-1-0Auditorium, Miami Beach, Florida, USAWKO210[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]time: 1:32 | referee: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Quarry was knocked down by a punch after the bell to end the 1st round.



The Shavers stoppage could be premature?

Really, I thought Mercante might have stopped it after the first knockdown.

"Shavers is hurt". "Shavers is in trouble" . "Shavers doesnt know where he is ".


[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Now think carefully and, [extremely difficult for you],answer honestly , have you seen the Quarry/ Brassell fight?

[Surf-Bat]

OK, I'm back in the land o' the healthy, so now I can see straight enough to respond.

Originally Posted by mcvey

I gave you three examples of weights for McCoy taken from fights all within the same year as the Sharkey fight all have McCoy within the middleweight limit. I asked you if these were incorrect as you implied the one for the Sharkey fight may have been ,you made no comment ,or none of any substance.

I thought you were quoting weights for Choynski and the rest for when they fought Sharkey, not weights for McCoy himself. My mistake.

Originally Posted by mcvey

I asked you which heayweights, apart from O Donnell, McCoy kod, you didnt reply. Just repeated that he dropped ,and kod heavyweights.
WELL PLEASE NAME THEM .

Steve O'Donnell
Peter Maher (though he would be considered a LH today)
Joe Goddard (hurt, floored and on the verge of a KO when he got himself DQ'd for grabbing McCoy about the waist)

This was all evidence enough that this man possessed the power to stop much larger men.

Originally Posted by mcvey

You talk about the Sharkey fight as though the Sailor had his arms tied whilst McCoy was teeing off on him.

Just about, yeah. Tommy Ryan was in Sharkey's corner for this fight and got the cockamamie idea that the sailor should try and get tricky with McCoy by boxing him. As a result McCoy bashed him at will for the initial rounds without Sharks landing anything of consequence. It's all in the fight report. Sharkey tossed the boxing to the wind after and from there on took everything McCoy had.

Nobody questioned Tom's ability to take it after this bout. Only here on ESB, over 100 years later, do people question it, mostly due to their lack of historical perspective on Sharkey, McCoy and their careers.

Originally Posted by mcvey

I think Quarry was a better boxer than Sharkey,

Without a doubt.

Originally Posted by mcvey

hit as hard

You're pushing it here. Tom was considered one of the premiere powerpunchers of his generation. I've never heard Quarry get awarded with such plaudits. Sharkey awed sportswriters with his workouts, his heavy bag punching was reportedly jaw dropping stuff. No, Sharkey has the advantage in this dept.

Originally Posted by mcvey

and had a chin as good ,

Maybe. He never had to take as much punishment as Sharkey as Quarry was harder to hit and didn't fight as many rounds. What does Quarry have to compare alongside Sharkey having to take it from Jeffries for 45 rounds?

Originally Posted by mcvey

Nobody questioned Jones, chin till he was kod.

Sure they did. Heck, I myself always wondered if Jones could take it. Sharkey's chin, on the other hand, was never a question for anyone. It was a certainty. He was considered one of the most rugged, durable fighters in the game.

Originally Posted by mcvey

Below a recount of the Sharkey/ Fitz fights from someone who was there , TWO ONE PUNCH KOS

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

I think we can agree that it's best to go to a firsthand source from the following day rather than a 30 years after the fact recollection. AS you can see, Fitz bashed Sharkey with huge punches for round after round. Yet Tom kept coming after him before finally succumbing. It wasn't just like some crushing single shot from nowhere ala Weaver-Tate:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


And why even bother bringing up the second fight, when Tom was considered shot?? It proves nothing. And anyway, once again it was a short but furious punch-up, Fitz needing a series of hard shots to put Sharkey away:

Fitzsimmons regrouped between rounds, but was still going up against a charging foe in Sharkey who wouldn't let up. But unfortunately for the Sailor (Sharkey), Fitzsimmons met his rush this time with his own barrage of punches which had Sharkey in a heap of trouble. Sharkey responded to this sudden adversity with a series of wild swings, one of them countered with a left hook which deposited Sharkey on the canvas for the first time in the fight. Sharkey arose but Fitzsimmons pressed his advantage once again and succeeded in landing the finisher with a right sent perfectly to the temple, putting the Sailor out for good. --Brooklyn Daily Eagle

Again, ESB is the only place where I've ever found anyone expressing doubts as to Sharkey's durability. Nobody back then did. I ask you again, why do you suppose that is?

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Surf-Bat

OK, I'm back in the land o' the healthy, so now I can see straight enough to respond.



I thought you were quoting weights for Choynski and the rest for when they fought Sharkey, not weights for McCoy himself. My mistake.




Steve O'Donnell
Peter Maher (though he would be considered a LH today)
Joe Goddard (hurt, floored and on the verge of a KO when he got himself DQ'd for grabbing McCoy about the waist)

This was all evidence enough that this man possessed the power to stop much larger men.




Just about, yeah. Tommy Ryan was in Sharkey's corner for this fight and got the cockamamie idea that the sailor should try and get tricky with McCoy by boxing him. As a result McCoy bashed him at will for the initial rounds without Sharks landing anything of consequence. It's all in the fight report. Sharkey tossed the boxing to the wind after and from there on took everything McCoy had.

Nobody questioned Tom's ability to take it after this bout. Only here on ESB, over 100 years later, do people question it, mostly due to their lack of historical perspective on Sharkey, McCoy and their careers.




Without a doubt.



You're pushing it here. Tom was considered one of the premiere powerpunchers of his generation. I've never heard Quarry get awarded with such plaudits. Sharkey awed sportswriters with his workouts, his heavy bag punching was reportedly jaw dropping stuff. No, Sharkey has the advantage in this dept.



Maybe. He never had to take as much punishment as Sharkey as Quarry was harder to hit and didn't fight as many rounds. What does Quarry have to compare alongside Sharkey having to take it from Jeffries for 45 rounds?



Sure they did. Heck, I myself always wondered if Jones could take it. Sharkey's chin, on the other hand, was never a question for anyone. It was a certainty. He was considered one of the most rugged, durable fighters in the game.




I think we can agree that it's best to go to a firsthand source from the following day rather than a 30 years after the fact recollection. AS you can see, Fitz bashed Sharkey with huge punches for round after round. Yet Tom kept coming after him before finally succumbing. It wasn't just like some crushing single shot from nowhere ala Weaver-Tate:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


And why even bother bringing up the second fight, when Tom was considered shot?? It proves nothing. And anyway, once again it was a short but furious punch-up, Fitz needing a series of hard shots to put Sharkey away:

Fitzsimmons regrouped between rounds, but was still going up against a charging foe in Sharkey who wouldn't let up. But unfortunately for the Sailor (Sharkey), Fitzsimmons met his rush this time with his own barrage of punches which had Sharkey in a heap of trouble. Sharkey responded to this sudden adversity with a series of wild swings, one of them countered with a left hook which deposited Sharkey on the canvas for the first time in the fight. Sharkey arose but Fitzsimmons pressed his advantage once again and succeeded in landing the finisher with a right sent perfectly to the temple, putting the Sailor out for good. --Brooklyn Daily Eagle

Again, ESB is the only place where I've ever found anyone expressing doubts as to Sharkey's durability. Nobody back then did. I ask you again, why do you suppose that is?

Glad you are fit and well.

Heavyweights?
Maher was 177lbs months earlier for the Ruhlin fight
Goddard was 177lbs 4 months earlier for a fight, and 43 years old when on the verge of a ko the second time they met , a cursory glance at his form then would mean no kudos being awarded to Sharkey for this win. As you say," it proves nothing".

O Donnell never fought Sharkey.

So in my book, Sharkey ko'd no heavyweights.
I seem to have given the impression Sharkey was weak- chinned, I did not intend to he was durable enough , but not quite the irresistable force he is portrayed ,as ko losses prove.
The" right to the temple ",was a one punch finish was it not?


What does Quarry have to compare?

Well he has ko's over huge heavyweights and very hard punching ones at that heavyweights who out weighed anyone Sharkey beat by over 30lbs.
I consider Jeffries power to be overated.
Thanks for the fights reports.

[Unforgiven]

Sharkey stood up to Jeffries, a genuine heavyweight by any measure.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

Sharkey stood up to Jeffries, a genuine heavyweight by any measure.

Quite so , but he didn't ko him ,and he didn't beat him.

The bone of contention was that Sharkey kod heavyweights. I asked Surf Bat to name some, he came up with 177lbs Maher,and 177lbs Goddard.

[Unforgiven]

Originally Posted by mcvey

Quite so , but he didn't ko him ,and he didn't beat him.

The bone of contention was that Sharkey kod heavyweights. I asked Surf Bat to name some, he came up with 177lbs Maher,and 177lbs Goddard.

Well, anyone over 154 was a heavyweight back in those days !

[Unforgiven]

boxrec provides weights for some of Sharkey's opponents.

He KO'd Gus Ruhlin, 190, and Fred Russell, 205, among others.