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Old 01-24-2013, 04:44 AM   #1
Johnstown
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Default Wrestling used in training for old school boxers.

I know many early guys often wrestled in camp...some of that goes back to London Prize Rules, when wrestling and judo like throws where allowed, and clinches seemed not ot have gotten broken up at all. Many did Greco style wrestling..because it focuses on above the waist take downs, which was what was allowed under London Prize Rules (thats just my own thinking, but I often see that most of the early guys trained with Greco wrestlers, and that is how they do it...which was similar to LPR rules)

Anyhow, I know Jeffries and Johnson were said to be very good wrestlers, and that they both used clinches a good bit...I know Johnson wrested in exhibitions, and those seemed to have been "real" wrestling matches. I know Dempsey did a great deal of greco type wrestling clinch work for Carpartner, and it is also said he was pretty good at catch as catch can submission wrestling.


The last heavyweight I have ever heard to seemed to wrestle allot in camp (as a means of training, not pro wrestling stuff) seems to have been Jim Braddock.

Anyow, does anyone know how much wrestling was done..when did it toally die out., was anyone still doing it for training in the 40s? how about the 50s? .why did it totally die out...im guessing they decided the injuries off set the benefits.

Thanks for anyone who knows anything on this.
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:00 AM   #2
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Default Re: Wrestling used in training for old school boxers.

Im not sure about wrestling or any of this i just really know Jeffries did quite a bit as ive seen a lot of pictures of him doing it, its usually just him lifting guys up never seen him on the floor or anything like that, dont know if hes doing any version of wrestling or just picking guys up
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:48 AM   #3
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Default Re: Wrestling used in training for old school boxers.

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Originally Posted by Theron View Post
Im not sure about wrestling or any of this i just really know Jeffries did quite a bit as ive seen a lot of pictures of him doing it, its usually just him lifting guys up never seen him on the floor or anything like that, dont know if hes doing any version of wrestling or just picking guys up
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at about 20 seconds he is doing some standing clinch work without gloves that could be considered wrestling...

I am pretty sure he also did full on greco wrestling
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:24 PM   #4
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Default Re: Wrestling used in training for old school boxers.

Pro wrestling and boxing were inextricably linked around the time of Jeffries and Johnson for a few reasons. There were promoters (Jack Curley being the obvious and most famous example) who would do shows in both fields, and also a lot of the theatrical tours that were popular at the time would have wrestlers and boxers both on board; I know Jeff toured with a travelling troupe of boxers and wrestlers pre-Reno. I guess friendships were forged along the way and that's one of the reasons he had Martin 'Farmer' Burns as one of his main trainers for the Johnson fight, plus, depending on who you listen to, William Muldoon as well.

Muldoon, of course, did give an in-ring speech prior to the Jeff/Johnson fight about fair play, etc., aimed at calming the crowd down. But I've heard contradictory things about whether he was a bonafide part of the Jeff camp or not.

This was around the time pro wrestling was becoming a bit of a mystery to the public in terms of how 'real' it was, but I don't think there's much doubt that wrestlers were all legit tough guys back then and did command fairly universal respect. Many were seen as pioneers of conditioning and physical fitness which again must have appealed to boxers, particularly to someone like Jeff who had such an incredible amount of weight to lose in the buildup to Reno. Burns and Muldoon both had terrific and long-lasting reputations as far as personal fitness and resistance training goes. Off the top of my head I know Gene Tunney regarded Muldoon as a mentor and credited him hugely for helping his career, I'm sure there's a fair few other examples too.

In terms of tactics for the Johnson fight, it isn't hard to imagine Jeff was hoping to outmuscle him in the clinches and stay clear of Jack's uppercuts, so training in wrestling would be a logical move. Didn't work out too well though...

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I know Johnson wrestled in exhibitions, and those seemed to have been "real" wrestling matches.
I am 99% certain that any wrestling match Jack did will have been worked/faked, would be absolutely amazed if not. Some pro wrestling matches had predetermined endings as early as the 1880s (there's evidence to suggest the majority did), and it's super hard to believe Jack would agree or even be asked to do a shoot/real bout when it'd be easy, hassle-free money to have a standard worked match.
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Old 01-25-2013, 11:51 PM   #5
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Default Re: Wrestling used in training for old school boxers.

i think understanding leverage and head position and how to tie up and get out of tie ups would serve most boxers especially today very well

some of these guys look inept up close
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:52 AM   #6
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Default Re: Wrestling used in training for old school boxers.

Clinching didn't used to be frowned upon.

Grappling without the takedowns scoring points used to be a pretty accepted part of boxing. Knowing how to manhandle a guy is such a great tool.

See Jack Johnson.
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:54 AM   #7
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Default Re: Wrestling used in training for old school boxers.

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
Clinching didn't used to be frowned upon.

Grappling without the takedowns scoring points used to be a pretty accepted part of boxing. Knowing how to manhandle a guy is such a great tool.

See Jack Johnson.
i agree and i think most guys now are inept in close and clinch or oblige to be clinched because they dont know or understand how to get positioning inside
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Old 01-26-2013, 01:23 AM   #8
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Default Re: Wrestling used in training for old school boxers.

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Originally Posted by KO KIDD View Post
i agree and i think most guys now are inept in close and clinch or oblige to be clinched because they dont know or understand how to get positioning inside
I don't hate on huggers. If you aren't man enough to outfight a guy while he's climbing your back, you aren't the better man.

I don't like John Ruiz, but he was rugged, strong, and his own type of skilled. Don't like what he's doing to ya? Stop him.
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Old 01-26-2013, 01:27 AM   #9
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Default Re: Wrestling used in training for old school boxers.

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
I don't hate on huggers. If you aren't man enough to outfight a guy while he's climbing your back, you aren't the better man.

I don't like John Ruiz, but he was rugged, strong, and his own type of skilled. Don't like what he's doing to ya? Stop him.
maybe my post didnt explain what i meant but what im saying is many guys dont get how to not be clinched

lots of guys accept it and wait to be separated not wrestle out and fire away

clinchers wont clinch or will be deterred if you dont let em
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Old 01-26-2013, 01:37 AM   #10
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Default Re: Wrestling used in training for old school boxers.

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Originally Posted by KO KIDD View Post
maybe my post didnt explain what i meant but what im saying is many guys dont get how to not be clinched

lots of guys accept it and wait to be separated not wrestle out and fire away

clinchers wont clinch or will be deterred if you dont let em
I agree 100%.

Don't fall in. Use a jab. Learn how to shed. Place your shoulder by his chin and hop up and down. Push for separation, and place shots. Use your head!

Guys only want an ugly inside fight if they think they win. Make it just as uncomfy for them as you, and the match cleans up. We're in agreement.
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Old 01-26-2013, 01:43 AM   #11
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Default Re: Wrestling used in training for old school boxers.

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
I agree 100%.

Don't fall in. Use a jab. Learn how to shed. Place your shoulder by his chin and hop up and down. Push for separation, and place shots. Use your head!

Guys only want an ugly inside fight if they think they win. Make it just as uncomfy for them as you, and the match cleans up. We're in agreement.
i was a wrestler but a boxing fan and sometimes it amazes me how some of these guys just dont get how to position their head and use their hands to get inside control to use their hands

im no experienced trained boxer but i think lots of wrestling knowledge can help a boxer
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Old 01-26-2013, 01:55 AM   #12
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Default Re: Wrestling used in training for old school boxers.

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Originally Posted by KO KIDD View Post
i was a wrestler but a boxing fan and sometimes it amazes me how some of these guys just dont get how to position their head and use their hands to get inside control to use their hands

im no experienced trained boxer but i think lots of wrestling knowledge can help a boxer
I gave that MMA and that K1 stuff a shot briefly, and I learned a whole lot.

If you ever tried boxing, your knowledge of positioning, how to explode, and how to shed would be real assets.
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Old 01-26-2013, 02:14 AM   #13
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Default Re: Wrestling used in training for old school boxers.

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
I gave that MMA and that K1 stuff a shot briefly, and I learned a whole lot.

If you ever tried boxing, your knowledge of positioning, how to explode, and how to shed would be real assets.
what i find interesting is that i feel both sports require similar disciplines of footwork hand eye coordination mental toughness and weight cutting

also both are 1 on 1 sports where you can win on points or land a big punch/pin an opponent to come all the way back

i think many can benefit from understanding both
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Old 01-26-2013, 05:43 AM   #14
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Default Re: Wrestling used in training for old school boxers.

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Originally Posted by KO KIDD View Post
what i find interesting is that i feel both sports require similar disciplines of footwork hand eye coordination mental toughness and weight cutting

also both are 1 on 1 sports where you can win on points or land a big punch/pin an opponent to come all the way back

i think many can benefit from understanding both
Wrestling is tough..and head to head..in a street fight..i think it is very likely that a equal skilled wrestler will have a advantage over a equal skilled boxer...having said all that..ive seen at my local mma gym some wrestlers just turn chicken when punches come in.
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Old 01-26-2013, 03:29 PM   #15
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Default Re: Wrestling used in training for old school boxers.

Paul Berlenbach was a AAU wrestling champion before winning the World light heavyweight title, so guess a lot of his attributes in boxing could be said to come from his wrestling background.
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