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Old 01-09-2013, 02:14 PM   #1381
Slip!
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

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Originally Posted by Jdsm View Post
Going to shamelessly bump one of my older posts from this thread with a few little changes. A lot of people are fascinated with this style:

"The 'philly shell' is quite a complex style with so many subtleties and variations that it's very hard to break down. It is often refered to as the 'shoulder roll defense' because the shoulder roll is one of the defensive skills that is incorporated by most boxers that use this style; however the shoulder roll is just that, one defensive skill that fits particularly well in to this style.

Since most of the interest in this style is from a defensive stand point, I will start with the defensive benefits of using the philly shell. The first defensive skill I'll talk about is the shoulder roll. The shoulder roll is very effective for defending against the orthodox right hand, specifically the straight right. Not only does it ensure that the chin is well protected from the shot, but if executed effectively, it sets up clean counterpunching opportunities.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAC6o9420fc[/ame]

3:10 (3:17 for slow motion) shows perfect execution of the shoulder roll by Mayweather. Not only does he protect his chin and deflect the shot away with the shoulder, he comes back with a nice short shot of his own, which Mosley is wide open for. With the shoulder roll, the orthodox fighter will turn his shoulders clockwise as the punch is anticipated and as this is done, it also takes the right hand out of the opponent's sight, which makes it a lot harder for them to defend against a counter that they've already been opened up for.

Further examples of the shoulder roll - counter right hand being executed:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDrFQtbM2rc[/ame]

Another defensive benefit of the philly shell is that when a fighter is backed up against the ropes, because of the hand position, they don't restrict their own vision and this allows them to parry, slip, roll and counter against punches.

A few examples of this:

8:25
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl50iVr25R8[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQjBDsHOpv4[/ame]

Due to the hands are held in the philly shell, so many defensive moves can be executed with minimal effort and energy expendature.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqOJp9Wmayo[/ame]

At around 1:45 Floyd Mayweather demonstrates how with very, very small movements shots can be blocked and present huge counter opportunities.

Another huge benefits is how easily the weight can be transferred from defensive-to-offensive transitions. If you look at the previous examples, you will notice that often fighters when rolling the right hand, they will transfer the weight more on to their back foot, which is beneficial for the actual counterpunch itself. Also note what happens to the hips when a fighter executes the shoulder roll and how that is going to add to the biomechanical advantage when counter punching.

One of the most notorious limitations of this style from a defensive point of view is when facing a southpaw, it can leave you very vulnerable to the straight left hand.

Since there is so much involved in this style, I'll make another post with the offensive benefits and if anybody wants me to try and explain further any defensive specifics, just ask. I'm not great at writing out long break downs"

Hope people enjoyed that and were able to take something from it.

Either tonight or over the next few days I think I'll give me take on the importance of changing tempo.

Good stuff, mate.

Looking forward to the changing tempo piece.
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Old 01-11-2013, 08:04 AM   #1382
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

Cheers Slip

I may get it done tonight but I can't promise anything. I'm looking at not just the change in punch tempo, but I'll also touch on overall body movement deception (BHop does this very well).

It's just going through my external harddrive and finding the video examples, then seeing if they're on Youtube also. In addition to what I mentioned in my 'phill shell defense' post, the first fighter that I know to use the shoulder roll was Joe Gans. Video example below:

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I think I'll see if any gyms would like a hand even if it's just helping out with the kids. Since I still haven't hit 20 yet, I think it would be good to get in and learn with hands on experience also.
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Old 01-22-2013, 06:50 PM   #1383
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

''In no sport is the temptation stronger than in boxing to run before you can walk. It is a temptation more strenuously than some others to be resisted. You must learn to stand in position before you begin to hit..'' J.G Bohun Lynch
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:38 AM   #1384
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

Great thread Lads!

I was wondering if you guys would mind breaking down inside fighting & fighting off the ropes? So many topics have been covered here but I think these two have been skipped
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Old 01-24-2013, 08:50 AM   #1385
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

Changing Tempo

Right, been meaning to do this for a while but I’ve been stupidly busy. Anyway, I just wanted to touch on the topic of changing the tempo, something that I consider massively important. Changing the tempo of the punches, body movement, foot movement etc are all very effective when it comes to landing your own shots and drawing your opponent on to those shots.

The first example I’ve got is one of the true masters of so many tricks in boxing, BHOP. At around 25 seconds you’ll see an example from the 7th or 8th round of the second Pascal fight. Look at how quick he sends the right hand relative to the first jab. 0:30:
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The next example is slightly different; it’s not just the change in the punch tempo that you can see. Watch how Wlad sort of slaps Haye’s glove up and makes it look like he is going to do the same thing then quickly changes the tempo (using one of my favourite combinations also). 6:33:
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You can see another example of Wlad changing his punch tempo when he was younger:
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The famous Hearns KO of Duran; watch how he sets the KO up with 2 ‘nothing’ body punches and then comes over the top with a faster right hand.
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You can see Lennox doing this with Rahman too. Count how many meaningful, fast punches Lennox throws before the actual KO…
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Watch how Guillermo Rigondeaux sets up his uppercut from 10:00:
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James Toney KO Prince Charles Williams:
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Mayweather v Ortiz at 25:10:
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Now, it’s not just changing the tempo on the front foot when throwing punches that I like, but also slowing the tempo of your movement to draw the other guy in. On the previous video, take a look at 23:12 & 24:15.

A final thing I want to show is a true master doing this in training. It’s not just of benefit for hitting the other person during a fight, but it’s also great for really refining the motor patterns. Watch Ward shadow box in this video:
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I mentioned in the training forum how you will often see amateurs hit the bag as hard as they can for as long as they can, but they will never do any sort of slow technical work like this. Even when I did it, I would often be told to stop. It got to the point where I would go to the gym earlier or stay later just to do it.

Despite the delay, I really didn’t get to spend as much time on this as I would have liked, but I hope people enjoy it and realise how effective it can be.

Last edited by Jdsm; 01-26-2013 at 04:26 PM.
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Old 01-26-2013, 02:06 PM   #1386
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

Right, got **** all to do tonight so give me some awesome technical fights to watch!
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Old 01-26-2013, 04:15 PM   #1387
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

This thread is gold- stick a contents in the op
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Old 01-26-2013, 04:30 PM   #1388
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jdsm View Post
Changing Tempo

Right, been meaning to do this for a while but Iíve been stupidly busy. Anyway, I just wanted to touch on the topic of changing the tempo, something that I consider massively important. Changing the tempo of the punches, body movement, foot movement etc are all very effective when it comes to landing your own shots and drawing your opponent on to those shots.

I mentioned in the training forum how you will often see amateurs hit the bag as hard as they can for as long as they can, but they will never do any sort of slow technical work like this. Even when I did it, I would often be told to stop. It got to the point where I would go to the gym earlier or stay later just to do it.

Despite the delay, I really didnít get to spend as much time on this as I would have liked, but I hope people enjoy it and realise how effective it can be.
Brilliant post.
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Old 01-26-2013, 05:08 PM   #1389
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

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Originally Posted by brown bomber View Post
Philly Shell Q's

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHwPBTDDp00&feature=player_embedded[/ame]

This is a tremendous breaksown and I love the roman guard analogy. My question is this- how do you deal with looping shots from the mayweather/toney/hopkins defence.... I can box a littloe out of this guard and my natural instinct is to roll .... what stops a persistant attacker?

Is it the counters alone? Surely eventually the attacker will begin to wear down the defender?

Why did Catilijo give mayweather so much trouble?

Basically I want to identify flaws in the style- before I use/teach it!
Just seen this post from ages ago. I'm going to do a piece on stiff-arm/open palm techniques in a few days, it's of great use when used in this style imo.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dftaylor View Post
Brilliant post.
Cheers pal!
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Old 01-27-2013, 03:54 AM   #1390
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Wink Re: The all things technical thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jdsm View Post
Just seen this post from ages ago. I'm going to do a piece on stiff-arm/open palm techniques in a few days, it's of great use when used in this style imo.

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Cheers pal!
I answered this myself and because I'm nice I will share. George Benton interestingly called this the style for the talentless- because the way in which boxers are meant to go about their work in it means they don't have to be as reliant on super human reflexes.

Ideally you are meant to use it from range. The right hand protects the face from jab and left hooks. Due to the weight being proportioned further back then normal the right elbow will sit nicely on the side of the body - this blocks the left hook to the body.

The front shoulder does the job of the left fist in a conventional guard. It will block right hands aimed at the chin, though I get my lads to use their right glove to increase the size of the blocking area by placing it next to their shoulder. The turn of their body means that the right hook to the body is protected by the low left, or elbow and should their opponent loop the right hook any further round the lead elbow it should be called a foul by the ref (kidney punch).

Because the fighters weight being on the back foot the opponents uppercut is a non weapon too firstly because of the range the shot has to travel and secondly because the trajectory of the uppercut carries it upward and if the cross arm guy is standing right his body and head will be in line so there will be no target.

The oweness in this stance is on the boxer to maximise his movement - this happens for two reasons firstly the range he uses it at will allow him extra time to see the shots coming- secondly the weight being proportioned on the back leg will give him miles more movement. Try rolling with your weight forward!

Indeed the entire subliminal game of the Philly is the attraction of the low left. The opponent sees the gap and thinks he can bridge it- all the while coming into distance and walking onto punches - the opponent is set to move whilst the Philly boxer is set to punch.

The style has gaps but providing the executor of it is aware of these gaps he's no more in danger then anyone else. They secret is keeping it on the very edge of yours and your opponents reach. That way every time they commit you can catch them coming in or leaning forward - may weather will do this alot he will press- but only to a certain closeness to his opponent- once they get whose to it he often switches he tactics or guard to something else and he'll go back to the cross arm once they've forgot or he's had success with something else- then they have to chase the points they've lost again.

The openness to right hands over the top and right hooks - is not a problem. It's the mouse trap- you want them to attempt to throw those shots with the most obvious trajectory from the furthest away point- that way you can take advantage of the openness that comes from punching.

On the inside being side on cuts down your offence but the same set of defences apply with one or two changes. Firstly the uppercut becomes a danger as you lean in. However if you place your shoulder in the middle of your opponents chest you cut off their back hand.

The second difference is that instead of just sight- on the inside you use sight AND feel. You begin to pick up which hand is the threat simply by feeling it move to a ore punch position. That little move will tell you which side your on danger on- where they are now open. Only experience will allow you to second guess the shot but that's how a lot of great fighters demonstrate such sharp reflexes on the inside.
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Old 01-27-2013, 04:01 AM   #1391
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

Now someone please do a contents ha ha
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Old 01-27-2013, 05:22 AM   #1392
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

Good stuff BB. I started to use that style after watching George Benton - couldn't use it against AMs though.

Going to spend today doing the stiff-arm piece.
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Old 01-27-2013, 05:56 AM   #1393
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

Open Hand/Stiff Arm Technique:

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Open handed techniques are something I consider a bit of a lost art, you don’t see many fighters using it these days. It’s incredibly effective at gauging distance, re-establishing distance, stopping the opponent in his tracks and adding another phase to an opponent’s attack before he can hit you.


The latter is one of the keys to how Wlad outclassed Haye (although footwork played a huge role too). When you use the extended arm the way Wlad does, not only do you need to close the distance with your feet and then let the shots go, but you need to close the distance whilst avoiding the extended arm and THEN let your shots go. Against somebody with such great footwork, this is one huge task, which is made even more difficult when you realise that if you get past the extended glove, he’s in a great position to grab you behind the head anyway. Two examples from the Wlad-Haye fight below at 1:40 & 2:55. Then skip to 8:40 and you will see how it makes it much easier to grab an opponent behind the head also.

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Anybody that watched Mikey Garcia the other week should have noticed him using this technique, here is Andre Ward talking about the fight where he mentions it briefly:

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I can't find the fight on YouTube, but anybody who has it available can see Garcia using the technique throughout the fight when Salido was trying to close the distance (Also used a fantastic left hook). It worked very well in helping Garcia control the distance and dictate the terms of engagement.

Here is an example of Ward using it v Froch, 2:25:

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You can also see him use it as a means of setting up his own attack at 2:55. It's a great way to gauge distance for an attack, just watch how Mayweather uses it here at 23:08 also:

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One of the signs of improvement from Khan in his last fight was the use of these techniques, here's an example of him training them:

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I didn't take a load of time on this, but I hope people can take something from it, which is why I contribute anything to this thread in the first place

Last edited by Jdsm; 01-28-2013 at 06:53 AM.
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