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Old 01-27-2013, 06:13 PM   #16
anj
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

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That's hardly much of a list of names in and of itself.You can count one hand how many very good prime fighters beaten at their best weightclass are in there, even if he theoretically had them all won right now.

Arce? C'mon maybe nine\ten years ago that would have been a good win..even 5\6 years ago.I didn't check a single thing that anyone was saying in the general on that fight as it held not the least interest as a competitive matchup for me, but surely no one thought it was anything other than a gimme?

If you're asking if having those wins would automatically make him a lock for anyone who cares to venture at top 50 all-time great list? Then i'd say no they should not.

It would be impressive and comparable to various other excellent and great fighters around those weights, especially just for consistently beating who is in front of him and weight jumping(though somewhat diluted by how much easier it his to cut weight now, Donaire was hardly a comfortable natural Fly) if not for having many wins against genuinely really good fighters, but not THAT impressive.
I have a top 50 list

Arce is still a solid win. He was coming off a solid winning streaks, beating Vasquez Jr the year before. Not quite the Arce of early 2000's but still a solid win.

The point is, this resume is actually very likely within the next 3 years...and most likely! It's a stacked resume.

Well in terms of weights...one hand?! Darchinyan, Vasquez Jr, Narvaez only put on 2lbs that's not earth shattering, Montiel was a beast at Bantam, Sydorenko, Mthlane - their careers are still going from strength to strength and Donaire fought them at a weight class they were used to fighting in and very solid in them..
As for the others who are not in Donaire's current resume, you have got to be kidding me - Chris John dominant at Featherweight for over a decade...same with Salido, Daniel is doing well at featherweight - he arguably beat Broner and he lost to a simply better guy...Gamboa.
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Old 01-27-2013, 06:13 PM   #17
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

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Harada has got a lot of credit and been well respected for at least half a decade on here, ever since the board had any posters who had interest in Fly\bantam really.he was the consensus greatest ever asian until Pac had his success at 140 and 147.Then things got divided.

Not sure i'd consider him a top 50 fighter either, all said, but he's no new flavour of the month.
haha no no. it's kind of an inside joke from a recent thread. no knock on harada
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Old 01-27-2013, 06:14 PM   #18
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

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Harada has got a lot of credit and been well respected for at least half a decade on here, ever since the board had any posters who had interest in Fly\bantam really.he was the consensus greatest ever asian until Pac had his success at 140 and 147.Then things got divided.

Not sure i'd consider him a top 50 fighter either, all said, but he's no new flavour of the month.
Not a top 50 for me either - but close, Pac is around 28th ish on my rankings.
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Old 01-27-2013, 06:15 PM   #19
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

fair enough, crawler
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Old 01-27-2013, 06:16 PM   #20
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

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How are we defining a phony champ here?

His record is stacked with mediocre to solid alphabet champs who won and defended titles against a motley assortion of cans, marginal talents and tough journeymen(usually even looking bad against them in the process.

Darchinyan, Sidorenko, Marquez, Mthalane, Montiel, Narvaez, Vasquez jr

A lot of these guys are or were the definition of weak titlists.Even if some had their year or two of hype like Vic and Montiel.
Completely disagree.
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Old 01-27-2013, 06:21 PM   #21
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

What sweater vesting, '20's Chicago Jazz listening jerk brought up the fighting one. I smell maple syrup and universal health care...
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Old 01-27-2013, 06:25 PM   #22
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

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it's more than following my post, Orriray came on with a fighting harada avatar. plus, he's the new hipster favourite on here

but harada may skirt the bottom of my top 50
lol fair enough
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Old 01-27-2013, 06:28 PM   #23
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

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What sweater vesting, '20's Chicago Jazz listening jerk brought up the fighting one. I smell maple syrup and universal health care...
pfff i liked fighting harada before he was japanese

now pardon me, i've some curling to do...

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Old 01-27-2013, 06:30 PM   #24
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

@everything.
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Old 01-27-2013, 06:31 PM   #25
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

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pfff i liked fighting harada before he was japanese

now pardon me, i've some curling to do...

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Don't you watch any non ice sports (boxing does not count its hockey without the sticks).
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Old 01-27-2013, 06:47 PM   #26
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

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Originally Posted by anj View Post
I have a top 50 list

Arce is still a solid win. He was coming off a solid winning streaks, beating Vasquez Jr the year before. Not quite the Arce of early 2000's but still a solid win.

The point is, this resume is actually very likely within the next 3 years...and most likely! It's a stacked resume.

Well in terms of weights...one hand?! Darchinyan, Vasquez Jr, Narvaez only put on 2lbs that's not earth shattering, Montiel was a beast at Bantam, Sydorenko, Mthlane - their careers are still going from strength to strength and Donaire fought them at a weight class they were used to fighting in and very solid in them..
As for the others who are not in Donaire's current resume, you have got to be kidding me - Chris John dominant at Featherweight for over a decade...same with Salido, Daniel is doing well at featherweight - he arguably beat Broner and he lost to a simply better guy...Gamboa.
Man, i don't think Arce has been a good fighter for many years, he was a decent little fighter at light-fy and started looking less impressive by the time he'd moved up to Fly circa 2006.So what if he beatVasquez jr...he's dire.

Taken as of now, Donaire's record is nothing too special.His best wins are:

a past-prime Montiel who had got a good win over the flashy, but mostly untested hasegawa(best wins over an ancient Sahaprom)who proved to be chinny.even in his prime was an overhyped WBO champ that beat up on nobodies for the most part and usually struggled when he fought anyone decent.

Vic Darchinyan who was a nothing-special typical 90s-00s IBF lowerweight splinter champ, reliant on weightcutting and big punching, that got a bit of overhyping from certain aussies.He then has a career high ambushing Mijares who was getting seriously overrated at the time when on his own run as champ before he had done enough to really deserve it.Beats a by then rather ordinary Arce and soon returns to nothing special as he moves up again in weight and can no longer rely on being bigger.

Toshiaki Nishioka....a good fighter who was past his prime and slowing down, but still turning in some solid performances against the 2nd and third tier fighters.Gave a pathetic effort against Donaire.

Most of the others are nothing of note as fighters.Narvaez is a protected and limited fighter, so was Sydorenko when he was Bantam champ.he's no spring chicken either so i wouldn't say he's going from strength to strength after multiple recent losses.

you're going too far imo if you think this is a record full of worthy champs and very good fighters.It's pretty thin stuff after 2-3 fighters.Sure it will be impressive if he does what you suggest in the original post, for reasons i mentioned earlier, but make him a sudden lock for top 50 on record alone? Not even close.

It wouldn't imo be better than Mike McCallum's record for instance and he doesn't usually make a top 50, just to name one of many fighters with better names beaten that also have reasonable depth.

That said, i'm all for ranking fighters on where you feel their inherent ability lies and if you truly rate the guy really highly then put him where you feel his ability merits, it's your list.IF someone says he's too high you've just got to have your argument ready.
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Old 01-27-2013, 06:48 PM   #27
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

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What sweater vesting, '20's Chicago Jazz listening jerk brought up the fighting one. I smell maple syrup and universal health care...
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Old 01-27-2013, 07:08 PM   #28
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

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Don't you watch any non ice sports (boxing does not count its hockey without the sticks).
wait, there are non ice sports?! how do you play them in the winter (canadian winters last 14 months of the year y'know)
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Old 01-27-2013, 07:11 PM   #29
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

Definitely a top 50 ATG if he adds those names to his resume imo, especially if the likes of Garcia, Gamboa etc go on to achieve what they're capable of.
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Old 01-27-2013, 07:29 PM   #30
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

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Man, i don't think Arce has been a good fighter for many years, he was a decent little fighter at light-fy and started looking less impressive by the time he'd moved up to Fly circa 2006.So what if he beatVasquez jr...he's dire.

Taken as of now, Donaire's record is nothing too special.His best wins are:

a past-prime Montiel who had got a good win over the flashy, but mostly untested hasegawa(best wins over an ancient Sahaprom)who proved to be chinny.even in his prime was an overhyped WBO champ that beat up on nobodies for the most part and usually struggled when he fought anyone decent.

Vic Darchinyan who was a nothing-special typical 90s-00s IBF lowerweight splinter champ, reliant on weightcutting and big punching, that got a bit of overhyping from certain aussies.He then has a career high ambushing Mijares who was getting seriously overrated at the time when on his own run as champ before he had done enough to really deserve it.Beats a by then rather ordinary Arce and soon returns to nothing special as he moves up again in weight and can no longer rely on being bigger.

Toshiaki Nishioka....a good fighter who was past his prime and slowing down, but still turning in some solid performances against the 2nd and third tier fighters.Gave a pathetic effort against Donaire.

Most of the others are nothing of note as fighters.Narvaez is a protected and limited fighter, so was Sydorenko when he was Bantam champ.he's no spring chicken either so i wouldn't say he's going from strength to strength after multiple recent losses.

you're going too far imo if you think this is a record full of worthy champs and very good fighters.It's pretty thin stuff after 2-3 fighters.Sure it will be impressive if he does what you suggest in the original post, for reasons i mentioned earlier, but make him a sudden lock for top 50 on record alone? Not even close.

It wouldn't imo be better than Mike McCallum's record for instance and he doesn't usually make a top 50, just to name one of many fighters with better names beaten that also have reasonable depth.

That said, i'm all for ranking fighters on where you feel their inherent ability lies and if you truly rate the guy really highly then put him where you feel his ability merits, it's your list.IF someone says he's too high you've just got to have your argument ready.
You believe the whole era is virtually overrated lol
I don't think his current resume is good enough, but with the additional wins, he's a beast.

Mike McCallum is an ATG beast IMO, wins over:
James Toney 1 AND 2 (an old Mike who was made to lose a huge 10lbs for each fight.
Julian Jackson
Donald Curry
Ayub Kalule - who was at worst only marginally off prime, he beat Kalambay years later, Mike hadn't necessarily entered his prime either
Jeff Harding - LHW isn't even McCallum's prime weight!
Steve Collins
Michael Watson coming off a win against Nigel Benn
Kalambay - I don't know who 'really' won this as I didn't watch the fight
Milton McCroy

Him losing to Roy Jones at the very end of his career takes nothing away from his greatness, especially considering H2H Roy Jones is one of the very greatest of all time.

Losing to Fabrice is no biggie at 39 + well removed from Mike's prime weight.
I don't even count the Toney 3 loss.

All in all, I PERSONALLY believe he has a good shout for Top 50. What do you think? His resume is STACKED with elite names. I'm aware that the names on Donaire's resume isn't as great, but then nor is Mayweather's. I'm looking at it from a different angle.
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