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Old 01-28-2013, 12:26 PM   #61
Flea Man
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

I believe the correct reply was 'Zing!'
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Old 01-28-2013, 01:02 PM   #62
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

If I don't post for a while its because i'm in the hospital getting treated for third degree Burns.
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Old 01-28-2013, 01:05 PM   #63
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

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Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
I believe the correct reply was 'Zing!'
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

i was in a meeting with my boss otherwise, i would have posted this...

zing!
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Old 01-28-2013, 01:28 PM   #64
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

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I have Harada above Jofre in the 30-35 bracket.

Anyone disagrees? Come at me.
I'm coming. And after I close that window we're going to discuss this.
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Old 01-28-2013, 02:04 PM   #65
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

You've really got it in for me this week Red.
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Old 01-28-2013, 02:33 PM   #66
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

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I'm coming. And after I close that window we're going to discuss this.
Count me in too, I REALLY want to know.

Fighting Harada with my limited knowledge, I'll place him around 51-60 which isn't half bad!

The case for Harada being in Top 50:
1. The wins over Eder Jofre, although Jofre's style was made for Harada, it's still a completely monstrous ATG win.

2. Harada beat all of the top fighters that Jofre beat...i.e Seki, Rudkin, Medel, Caraballo, apart from Legra and Saldivar (who Harada didn't face), but as Flea stated and it's true, Saldivar was way past his prime (although Jofre was somewhat past his prime too, being 37 and no longer in his prime weight).
Point 2 is a legit point because Jofre are in most people's top 50.

3. He also has a win over Ebihara who was a very solid midget.

4. He did all of this, all in a period of 10 years, from ages 16-26.


Why he doesn't quite fit Top 50:

1. His loss to contenders like Esparza lol
2. He lost the Harada-Kingpetch rivalry..But I haven't seen the second fight to judge for myself.
3. TKO6 loss to Joe Medel, however..with credit, he did avenge this loss.
4. Jofre blitzed his opponents, Harada could barely scrape past some of them!
5. His loss to Lionel Rose. I would really be expecting a win against Rose. I haven't seen much of Harada but the way some people on this forum talk, it's as if he has Pernell Whitaker skill level or something. As a layman on FH, this loss makes me think...hmm...he always had a tough time with TOP opposition that I recognise. Harada moved back down to his prime weight for this fight also.
6. Harada, the son of Johnny Famechon. Harada arguably won the first fight, but Famechon laid the smackdown on Harada in Harada's final fight.
- With point 6, it's important to note that it wasn't at his prime weight. I haven't seen how he operated during these fights compared to when he was at 118lbs. I mean on this forum someone said Cotto was 'shot' when he fought Mayweather...I saw the fight, Cotto was a monster. You have to watch it yourself.


Yes I am a layman where FH is involved as you can see, but Flea is a die hard Harada fan who probably glorifies that era more than what it's worth (even if worth a lot) just like how old men replace their viagra with a conversation over old timers, which they get erections over, so remember to take things with a pinch of salt.

Harada, a great ATG, beatable but Great.

This discussion and my research will either make me rate FH higher or Jofre lower
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Old 01-28-2013, 02:47 PM   #67
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

Good post anj but a few points:

How did he lose the Kingpetch rivalry? They only fought twice and the first was an absolute annihilation where Harada looked as good ad anyone ever has filmed in a
Prize ring.

A 'beatable great'?! Who isn't?! Oh, Jofre for one. Only one man managed to solve that puzzle.

Why did you say 'lol' after Esparza? It shows what a ****ing retard you are. Are you 17?

You are making most of your stuff up!!!

How did he 'move back down to his prime weight?'

I've already given you an example of Harada dealing with an opponent with less trouble than Jofre did. Jofre was also a big puncher and Harada was not. Bringing this up again shows your bias. I'm assuming you rank Muhammad Ali behind George Foreman for the same reason even though, like Harada he holds a distinction no one else does over him (Only man to stop Foreman/Harada only man to beat Jofre) but scraped past opponents Foreman bludgeoned inside a few rounds (Norton & Frazier)

Also, of you have him in the 50th place with no clue whatsoever about him what's to say you wouldn't rate him as highly as me once you knew more?

You say you wanna' learn yet ignore the facts, haven't seen the footage, keep relying on boxrec to support your arguments (BTW it's Aoki, not Seki they both fought)

How can you hold not facing Saldivar and Legra against Harada? Why not criticise Jofre for not moving down and beating Kingpetch and Ebihara? Speaking of Ebihara, do you know the circumstances in which Harada established his superiority over him and why it was an important victory?

Also, who said Harada is like Floyd?! He's a swarmed who could box a bit as well. That's it. Incredible jab as well, could chase you with it and befor you knew it he was all over ya', the constant jab in your face an annoyance that made you forget there was a man behind the fist getting closer, and closer.

Beast.
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Old 01-28-2013, 02:56 PM   #68
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

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Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
Good post anj but a few points:

How did he lose the Kingpetch rivalry? They only fought twice and the first was an absolute annihilation where Harada looked as good ad anyone ever has filmed in a
Prize ring.

A 'beatable great'?! Who isn't?! Oh, Jofre for one. Only one man managed to solve that puzzle.

Why did you say 'lol' after Esparza? It shows what a ****ing retard you are. Are you 17?

You are making most of your stuff up!!!

How did he 'move back down to his prime weight?'

I've already given you an example of Harada dealing with an opponent with less trouble than Jofre did. Jofre was also a big puncher and Harada was not. Bringing this up again shows your bias. I'm assuming you rank Muhammad Ali behind George Foreman for the same reason even though, like Harada he holds a distinction no one else does over him (Only man to stop Foreman/Harada only man to beat Jofre) but scraped past opponents Foreman bludgeoned inside a few rounds (Norton & Frazier)

Also, of you have him in the 50th place with no clue whatsoever about him what's to say you wouldn't rate him as highly as me once you knew more?

You say you wanna' learn yet ignore the facts, haven't seen the footage, keep relying on boxrec to support your arguments (BTW it's Aoki, not Seki they both fought)

How can you hold not facing Saldivar and Legra against Harada? Why not criticise Jofre for not moving down and beating Kingpetch and Ebihara? Speaking of Ebihara, do you know the circumstances in which Harada established his superiority over him and why it was an important victory?

Also, who said Harada is like Floyd?! He's a swarmed who could box a bit as well. That's it. Incredible jab as well, could chase you with it and befor you knew it he was all over ya', the constant jab in your face an annoyance that made you forget there was a man behind the fist getting closer, and closer.

Beast.
i wonder why more swarmers and boxers with INCREDIBLE stamina didn't rely more on the damn jab. some fighters like armstrong seemed to live in the pocked and the jab wasn't their bread and butter but if you can bust out 50 jabs a round, with in and out as well as lateral movement, you don't NEED to get inside and turn it into a brawl every single round. mixing in a consistent, accurate jab can only help you rather than relying solely on heavy hooks on the inside. that's what i love about harada: he can't be classified as a traditional swarmer because he did so much stuff swarmers can't/won't do
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:07 PM   #69
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

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i wonder why more swarmers and boxers with INCREDIBLE stamina didn't rely more on the damn jab. some fighters like armstrong seemed to live in the pocked and the jab wasn't their bread and butter but if you can bust out 50 jabs a round, with in and out as well as lateral movement, you don't NEED to get inside and turn it into a brawl every single round. mixing in a consistent, accurate jab can only help you rather than relying solely on heavy hooks on the inside. that's what i love about harada: he can't be classified as a traditional swarmer because he did so much stuff swarmers can't/won't do
I agree with you. Harada was a swarmer who did it behind a great jab and great footwork. He was also a great ring general, great at changing the pace.
Esparza was a good fighter as it happens, my old fella rated him highly. He was good enough to beat Harada in Japan on points. That for me is a better result than Medel knocking him out.
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:13 PM   #70
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

That is a way of looking at it!

And yes, he was a good fighter. Your dad would know more about that then someone having a quick scan over boxrec.

Also, I agree with you and Nightcrawler; I would say Harada is more 'skilled' than Floyd anyway. Because he proved it against a sufficient bunch of different stylists rather than the straight on, open wide blokes Floyd has made a living tattooing.

Now if anj had said Sumbu Kalambay I'd not have had a leg to stand on.
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:16 PM   #71
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

To really appreciate Harada you have get that he was more of a natural Fly(albeit a big one) and was a fat bastard that ate his way through the weights between fights.The Esparza fight is an early example of that...he fought him as a fat over the weight Flyweight.

understand that and watch stuff like Kingpetch and Jofre and you begin to see what a monster he was when near his best fighting shape.It also helps to understand why he was't the most consistent performer after actually winning titles, nor blessed with terrific longevity.Both of which he obvously should be criticised for and not just used as excuses.

However guys like that usually had nowhere near the career Harada did back when their weren't junior weightclasses and less belts.he was fighting borderline great\all-time great fighters at every weight he jumped up to.

Harada would have been even more at home in a junior weightclass climate with less fights expected per year, opponent's far more thoroughly scouted so as to pick the most beatable and a big Western promoter like Arum or King.Easier to get punished for not being at your best against a Lionel Rose than it is against some chump only there to survive like Narvaez.then he'd have a lengthy notice when a hyped fight against a supposed threat does get made.
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:17 PM   #72
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

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You've really got it in for me this week Red.
Challenges have been thrown. And accepted. Soon.
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:21 PM   #73
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

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Challenges have been thrown. And accepted. Soon.
Why do you get time to prepare when I'm going off the dome?
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:33 PM   #74
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

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Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
Good post anj but a few points:

How did he lose the Kingpetch rivalry? They only fought twice and the first was an absolute annihilation where Harada looked as good ad anyone ever has filmed in a
Prize ring.

A 'beatable great'?! Who isn't?! Oh, Jofre for one. Only one man managed to solve that puzzle.

Why did you say 'lol' after Esparza? It shows what a ****ing retard you are. Are you 17?

You are making most of your stuff up!!!

How did he 'move back down to his prime weight?'

I've already given you an example of Harada dealing with an opponent with less trouble than Jofre did. Jofre was also a big puncher and Harada was not. Bringing this up again shows your bias. I'm assuming you rank Muhammad Ali behind George Foreman for the same reason even though, like Harada he holds a distinction no one else does over him (Only man to stop Foreman/Harada only man to beat Jofre) but scraped past opponents Foreman bludgeoned inside a few rounds (Norton & Frazier)

Also, of you have him in the 50th place with no clue whatsoever about him what's to say you wouldn't rate him as highly as me once you knew more?

You say you wanna' learn yet ignore the facts, haven't seen the footage, keep relying on boxrec to support your arguments (BTW it's Aoki, not Seki they both fought)

How can you hold not facing Saldivar and Legra against Harada? Why not criticise Jofre for not moving down and beating Kingpetch and Ebihara? Speaking of Ebihara, do you know the circumstances in which Harada established his superiority over him and why it was an important victory?

Also, who said Harada is like Floyd?! He's a swarmed who could box a bit as well. That's it. Incredible jab as well, could chase you with it and befor you knew it he was all over ya', the constant jab in your face an annoyance that made you forget there was a man behind the fist getting closer, and closer.

Beast.
Kingpetch avenged his loss and it was after Harada's domination of Kingpetch. Kingpetch became Harada's daddy.
You hold a good point with the Muhammad Ali analogy. Muhammad Ali still faced more top level opponents let's not forget.
Yes Harada found a way to get the win, but I rate Frazier and Norton over Harada's opponents, but just because Harada wasn't as much of a puncher as Jofre, that doesn't mean being a hard puncher is the only route to winning big against an opponent. Tim Bradley vs Devon Alexander.....Lucas Matthysse vs Devon Alexander springs to mind just as a sidenote example. Harada's ability to express skills clearly wasn't as devastating as we'd like to think.

I actually agree with you, I am completely open to rating him as high as you, I'm being completely honest here. It's either that or for all I know after my own research I could rate Jofre (who is in my top 50), lower.

I have to start somewhere tbh, boxrec is a good place (Aoki/Seki - slip of the tongue).

I never said I hold it against Harada... I just simply stated a difference between their resumes.

I'd like to know the circumstances about the Harada win over Ebihara, it could make it an even greater win for Harada if it's tougher on him.

This conversation makes me think...if I rate Jofre and Harada high...then it kinda says something about Saldivar..
I mean, his resume consists of wins over Dwight Hawkins (who you clearly rate), Jose Legra, Harada's daddy Famechon, Sugar Ramos, Ismael Laguna - I'd prefer to have Ramos and Laguna on my resume over over Rudkin and Caraballo for example. I also give Saldivar the sort of credit I'd give to Jofre over the Legra win.

'Why did you say 'lol' after Esparza? It shows what a ****ing retard you are. Are you 17?'
- Like I said earlier to you, you need to relax. I think it's more 'retarded' to get all animated over a simple lol about some random fighter who doesn't even give a shit about you haha - I hope you're younger than 17 because it's pretty embarrassing to be that animated and angry all the time as a mature man, especially over some esb comment. Yeah, it is a lol.
I'm 21 if you really wanted to know.

Let's have a discussion, remove the confrontation urges. Relax Flea, relax yourself.
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:33 PM   #75
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Default Re: Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

When you look at it Harada very nearly became only the 3rd man to win titles at 3 of the original weight classes behind Fitz and Henry Armstrong, a couple of other fellas claimed 3 with jnr divisions, Ross and Armstrong. Even Robinson couldn't do it! It's no coincidence that since the 80's with ABC titles and the bastard divisions that we're getting all kinds of multidivision title holders.
I'm not saying that Donaire isn't a good possibly great fighters but it is easier now. Easier to pick your opponents, easier to not have to fight the best fighters in title fights, easier to not have to fight tough fighters on the way up. I think it's easy for some fans to look at these fellas and all the titles they're winning and get carried away.
It's also easy to consider with a quick glance over boxrec that some of those old fellas that you don't know about couldn't of been good because they lost to other fighters that you've never heard of and don't know nothing about as well.

Last edited by AlFrancis; 01-28-2013 at 03:53 PM.
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