Smelling saltes as a PED

[MagnaNasakki]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

It's where you draw the line with PEDs for me. Technically a cup of strong coffee could be a PED, I mean it's not banned but it's got caffeine that will give you a boost.

Then you have the plethora of performance enhancing supplements that aren't banned but improve performance a little, not as much as the banned but the intent is essentially the same.

Then you have, don't laugh, Viagra, not banned, but a better PED than quite a few banned PEDs

I don't like a stacked deck either, but I think pro-sports gone beyond that, at least in boxing 'skills beats all' to a degree. You can take a bodybuilder taking shedloads of PEDs and he'll get beat silly and outlasted by a fat out of shape boxer

I have a pretty rounded view of it- I've used a steroid to help heal an injury, and got a positive test without adequate doctor paperwork. Got an NC, man, and it still follows me, and I've tried to remain clean my whole career.

I know for a fact that a lot of guys do them, and the times I've encountered it, staring me in the face, BOTH guys fighting were on the juice, so I didn't think twice.

I think we just want fair contests, and we really don't like the thought of anything BUT the fists settling the contest. If we think those fists had help they shouldn't have, it hurts our credibility, and, frankly, our feelings(no homo). Hard to watch a hero get beat down and believe, in your heart of hearts, that outcome would have been different if only xyz.

[Flea Man]

Some great posts in this thread gentlemen.

[Webbiano]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

DQ is ALWAYS the discretion of the referee. He can deduct, he can DQ, or he can do nothing, for any offense, at any time. He is God in the ring, sharing the crown with the Doctor in some commissions.

If the referee chose not to do it, that's how it goes, and the outcome of the fight is the outcome of the fight. Me, personally, I'd have penalized and threw out the banned substance and the cornerman in question. But it wasn't me. I don't like throwing out the outcomes of fights. This fight was decided by punches thrown and received, and that should stand wherever possible. Ring justice.

Since when was the usage of supplements in the middle of a boxing match justice? Like you where saying earlier, it gives an unfair advantage to Ali therefore he should have been disqualified. If you where the ref and was aware of what was going down in the corner, you wouldn't be doing your job correctly if you deducted a point and threw the salts away.

[Webbiano]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

I have a pretty rounded view of it- I've used a steroid to help heal an injury, and got a positive test without adequate doctor paperwork. Got an NC, man, and it still follows me, and I've tried to remain clean my whole career.

I know for a fact that a lot of guys do them, and the times I've encountered it, staring me in the face, BOTH guys fighting were on the juice, so I didn't think twice.

I think we just want fair contests, and we really don't like the thought of anything BUT the fists settling the contest. If we think those fists had help they shouldn't have, it hurts our credibility, and, frankly, our feelings(no homo). Hard to watch a hero get beat down and believe, in your heart of hearts, that outcome would have been different if only xyz.

Again, how is the use of a banned substance in one man's corner a fair contest?

[Flea Man]

Well all we can do is reverse the decision. So should we start taking credit from Ali for cheating and give Cooper credit for a win now?

[Webbiano]

Originally Posted by Flea Man

Well all we can do is reverse the decision. So should we start taking credit from Ali for cheating and give Cooper credit for a win now?

That's not what I'm trying to say at all Flea . Do you know if there where any talks of the decision being over turned or ruled a no contest after the fight? I've had a little look on the net but not found anything yet.

[Flea Man]

That might be a reason Dundee made up all that bullshit about minutes for the torn glove and whatnot. Seems to get more press than the smelling salts, nice diversionary tactic that.

[MagnaNasakki]

Originally Posted by Flea Man

That might be a reason Dundee made up all that bullshit about minutes for the torn glove and whatnot. Seems to get more press than the smelling salts, nice diversionary tactic that.

Quite possibly.

Always the referees discretion, and there is virtually NO precedent for an outcome being CHANGED.

Invalidated and NC'ed, yes, that happens all the time, but very, very rarely is a loss turned into a win. It would be bad, bad juju. It'd be the final nail in the coffin of the sport.

[MagnaNasakki]

Originally Posted by Webbiano

Since when was the usage of supplements in the middle of a boxing match justice? Like you where saying earlier, it gives an unfair advantage to Ali therefore he should have been disqualified. If you where the ref and was aware of what was going down in the corner, you wouldn't be doing your job correctly if you deducted a point and threw the salts away.

I prefer fists settling a contest. I would, in fact, do everything in my power to AVOID a DQ, and many referees are the same.

A single intentional low blow isn't met with a DQ, but it offers an IMMEDIATE and FAR more egregious unfair advantage. Many refs don't even DQ fighters whose corners illegally rush the ring.

Let the fighters fight whenever you can. If banned substances become an issue, let the commissions judge the result, and let the assosciation's, if any, order a rematch. The referee's number one goal should be to control the fight, yes, but number 2 should be to let the fighters fight.

[Flea Man]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

Quite possibly.

Always the referees discretion, and there is virtually NO precedent for an outcome being CHANGED.

Invalidated and NC'ed, yes, that happens all the time, but very, very rarely is a loss turned into a win. It would be bad, bad juju. It'd be the final nail in the coffin of the sport.

Of course.

I wonder what the perception of Clay would've been at the time, and Ali now, if he had been DQ'd and not had the chance to show he'd recovered. Sure he'd have gone on to beat Cooper in the rematch, but would it be as champ after dethroning Liston?

If anything else it'd be brought up even more than the friggin' knockdown does nowadays, even now after all the myths have been dispelled you still see 'em cropping up every so often.

Imagine if Saad had been DQ'd for having that substance on him against Conteh. An absolutely superb fight would've been snatched from us, and Conteh's lightning in a bottle physical state that night would've been robbed from him even in a DQ win. We never would've seen that great comeback.

I'm glad these kinda' misdemeanours go unpunished in a way as I don't think them to be really that much of an advantage. Of course I'm talking selfishly as a spectator wanting to see one thing only; you got it, a good clean fight




Disclaimer; yes I'm essentially advocating an ickle bit of cheating as it's to gain a little advantage in the ebb and flow and not to really damage your opponent, ergo I appreciate B-Hop's sneaky butting, not so much Luis Resto's tampered gloves. Case-by-case basis I guess, but again, selfish I know.

[MagnaNasakki]

Originally Posted by Flea Man

Of course.

I wonder what the perception of Clay would've been at the time, and Ali now, if he had been DQ'd and not had the chance to show he'd recovered. Sure he'd have gone on to beat Cooper in the rematch, but would it be as champ after dethroning Liston?

If anything else it'd be brought up even more than the friggin' knockdown does nowadays, even now after all the myths have been dispelled you still see 'em cropping up every so often.

Imagine if Saad had been DQ'd for having that substance on him against Conteh. An absolutely superb fight would've been snatched from us, and Conteh's lightning in a bottle physical state that night would've been robbed from him even in a DQ win. We never would've seen that great comeback.

I'm glad these kinda' misdemeanours go unpunished in a way as I don't think them to be really that much of an advantage. Of course I'm talking selfishly as a spectator wanting to see one thing only; you got it, a good clean fight




Disclaimer; yes I'm essentially advocating an ickle bit of cheating as it's to gain a little advantage in the ebb and flow and not to really damage your opponent, ergo I appreciate B-Hop's sneaky butting, not so much Luis Resto's tampered gloves. Case-by-case basis I guess, but again, selfish I know.

It's prizefighting, man. An ickle bit of cheating happens each round, much less each fight. The referee is there to reign it in, penalize a guy who gets excessive, or end a fight if a fight, in essence, refuses to fight fair.

Even Mills Lane let a bout go on after a huge bite. Referee discretion IS a rule. I have a problem with the whole "Shoulda been DQed" mindset. "Coulda been DQed" is valid, but should isn't really on the balance of the thing. It's on tthe ref.

[Webbiano]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

I prefer fists settling a contest. I would, in fact, do everything in my power to AVOID a DQ, and many referees are the same.

A single intentional low blow isn't met with a DQ, but it offers an IMMEDIATE and FAR more egregious unfair advantage. Many refs don't even DQ fighters whose corners illegally rush the ring.

Let the fighters fight whenever you can. If banned substances become an issue, let the commissions judge the result, and let the assosciation's, if any, order a rematch. The referee's number one goal should be to control the fight, yes, but number 2 should be to let the fighters fight.

Okay this is more along the lines of what I meant although I'm oretty sure of your answer already, do you think the decision should of been made to a no contest. I also agree that turning it from a win to a loss would have been absaloutley ridiculous.

[Flea Man]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

It's prizefighting, man. An ickle bit of cheating happens each round, much less each fight. The referee is there to reign it in, penalize a guy who gets excessive, or end a fight if a fight, in essence, refuses to fight fair.

Even Mills Lane let a bout go on after a huge bite. Referee discretion IS a rule. I have a problem with the whole "Shoulda been DQed" mindset. "Coulda been DQed" is valid, but should isn't really on the balance of the thing. It's on tthe ref.

This is how I see it, and great example of Mills Lane there

Webbiano; I wasn't talking about the actual decision being overturned earlier. My point was should the general opinion on Ali be that he cheated to win that fight?

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

Agreed 100% with Jack, AND

Try smelling salts when you are groggy. They aren't the end all cure they are built up to be. Had em tried on me once after I got dropped hard sparring. They didn't do shit. I was still toast.

I believe they helped Ali against Cooper, incidentally their use was banned in the UK at the time.

It obviously did not alter the result because Ali came out meaning business in the next round, and established control.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

It's prizefighting, man. An ickle bit of cheating happens each round, much less each fight. The referee is there to reign it in, penalize a guy who gets excessive, or end a fight if a fight, in essence, refuses to fight fair.

Even Mills Lane let a bout go on after a huge bite. Referee discretion IS a rule. I have a problem with the whole "Shoulda been DQed" mindset. "Coulda been DQed" is valid, but should isn't really on the balance of the thing. It's on tthe ref.

Cheating is cheating , it isnt" gamesmanship",its taking a dishonest advantage and its been in boxing for ever and in most other sports too. Matt Franklin as was ,had his cut stopped by a Monsels solution type substance, he was in danger of losing by tko , his corner cheated simple.

Conteh came up against this versus Matte Parlov who entered the ring with a ridiculous coating of plastic skin on his eyebrows and was allowed to fight with it.
Conteh himself would stick the nut on you given the smallest chance, but imo, he was robbed in both those fights.