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Old 01-28-2013, 10:46 PM   #106
dodong
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Default Re: Who won? Leonard or Hagler?

clancy and ryan were so blatantly pro leonard in their commentary on this fight.

and again, leonard was a regular on cbs where clancy and ryan did their saturday fight show and hagler's fights were on abc.
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:47 PM   #107
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Default Re: Who won? Leonard or Hagler?

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Originally Posted by dodong View Post
clancy and ryan were so blatantly pro leonard in their commentary on this fight.

and again, leonard was a regular on cbs where clancy and ryan did their saturday fight show and hagler's fights were on abc.
cool, but rounds 1 and 2 were still clear Leonard rounds
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:57 PM   #108
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Default Re: Who won? Leonard or Hagler?

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cool, but rounds 1 and 2 were still clear Leonard rounds
i just watched round 1 again. though leonard threw more, total landed is just about even or a slight edge to leonard but hagler landed the heavier shot which made the round even. but since hagler was the one pressing, he should get the round.
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Old 01-29-2013, 02:49 AM   #109
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Default Re: Who won? Leonard or Hagler?

I thought Leonard just won it.Hagler just didn`t quite do enough.I think Marvin hates him still to this day for not giving him a rematch.He should`ve done,would`ve been worth it.
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:38 AM   #110
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Default Re: Who won? Leonard or Hagler?

just re-scored

1 leonard
2 leonard
3 leonard
4 leonard
5 hagler
6 even
7 hagler
8 hagler
9 even
10 hagler
11 leonard
12 even

116-115


i find it hard to be decisive about 6,9,10 and 12 - hagler coming forward but leonards work sharper.
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Old 01-29-2013, 12:47 PM   #111
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Default Re: Who won? Leonard or Hagler?

Leonard throws a lot of sharp good looking punches, but many of those aren't landing, I suggest watching the fight on mute.. it made a big difference
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Old 01-29-2013, 02:09 PM   #112
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Default Re: Who won? Leonard or Hagler?

Theres such a contrast between how both fighters work in this fight that it makes it hard to judge, with the victor coming down to your personal preference of style.

Hagler coming forward, steady grind, pressure, missing too many shots.

Leonard fighting backwards, fighting in bursts, doing the flashier more eye catching work but being walked down.
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Old 01-29-2013, 02:16 PM   #113
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Default Re: Who won? Leonard or Hagler?

Leonard-Hagler
10-9
10-9
10-9
10-9
9-10
10-9
9-10
9-10
9-10
10-9
10-9
9-10

115-113 Leonard
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Old 01-29-2013, 02:20 PM   #114
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Default Re: Who won? Leonard or Hagler?

Leonard by a point! He fought his fight, Hagler did not fight his fight. Leonard outsmarted him that night! I can see a case for Hagler winning by a narrow margin too.
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Old 01-29-2013, 02:47 PM   #115
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Default Re: Who won? Leonard or Hagler?

So many rounds you could score either way, i could watch that fight tomorow and score it differently to what i did today.

What i will say is that i think there was plenty of emotion involved with scoring the fight at that time, Hagler was such a huge favourite and it just seemed inconceivable that a career welterweight in Leonard could have just 1 fight in 5 years and then comeback and beat one of the greatest middleweights of all time.

Leonard created the fairytale and the fans got hyped behind that and the 118-110 judge certainly got behind that, i think most of us were expecting a Hagler ko inside 5 rounds.
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Old 01-29-2013, 03:05 PM   #116
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Default Re: Who won? Leonard or Hagler?

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Originally Posted by ELECTRIC GURU View Post
So many rounds you could score either way, i could watch that fight tomorow and score it differently to what i did today.

What i will say is that i think there was plenty of emotion involved with scoring the fight at that time, Hagler was such a huge favourite and it just seemed inconceivable that a career welterweight in Leonard could have just 1 fight in 5 years and then comeback and beat one of the greatest middleweights of all time.

Leonard created the fairytale and the fans got hyped behind that and the 118-110 judge certainly got behind that, i think most of us were expecting a Hagler ko inside 5 rounds.
I find that happens in boxing quite a bit.
Everyone loves those types of stories where someone does something against the odds and it wins hearts and clouds the reality of what really happened.
I thought Leonard shaded it, when I watched the fight years ago, but it was real close and a friend felt Hagler won close. It was that type of fight.
I will have to watch it again.

I was in the minority when watching live, that Leonard shaded it against Hearns in the rematch, but will have to watch that one again also
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Old 01-29-2013, 03:08 PM   #117
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Default Re: Who won? Leonard or Hagler?

115-113 Hagler
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Old 01-29-2013, 03:38 PM   #118
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Default Re: Who won? Leonard or Hagler?

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Originally Posted by bailey View Post
I find that happens in boxing quite a bit.
Everyone loves those types of stories where someone does something against the odds and it wins hearts and clouds the reality of what really happened.
I thought Leonard shaded it, when I watched the fight years ago, but it was real close and a friend felt Hagler won close. It was that type of fight.
I will have to watch it again.

I was in the minority when watching live, that Leonard shaded it against Hearns in the rematch, but will have to watch that one again also
I watched Leonard v Hearns 2 live and scored it a draw though i admit i had Leonard tinted glasses for that fight

Think it was the 5th and the 12th that I scored as 10-8 rounds for Leonard.
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Old 01-29-2013, 04:37 PM   #119
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Default Re: Who won? Leonard or Hagler?

Round 1.

Ray gives a great display of how ring generalship does not have to mean coming forward or being the "aggressor",working beautifully on the backfoot and keeping Marvin at a preferable distance and lands the only real scoring blows of the round when he neutralises Marvin's advances superbly.

10-9 Leonard

Round 2.

Marvin has a better first minute but around halfway Ray lands a nice combination and spends the rest of the round using his famous right hand lead to steal the round.Classic "stick and move" from Leonard and holding at the right times whilst leaning just enough on Marvin to stop him getting leverage in the clinch.

10-9 Leonard

Round 3.

Marvin starts well again and seems to do much better when trying to close the distance with his jab,as opposed to just trying to walk Ray down,he seems to be anticipating Rays footwork and direction now but Ray throws a nice combo to the body and then manages to once again take the round by doing more in the second half.Closer but Ray shades it by virtue of doing more again in the latter stages.

10-9 Leonard

Round 4.

Once again,Marvin lands the first meaningful blows but starts to lunge again,and Ray starts to throw 1-2's followed up by holding Marvin to stop him in his tracks.Ray throws a long blow but it's low.He's starting to gas now but he throws a couple right hand leads then when Marvin tries to go on the offensive,Ray moves beautifully and Marvin in punching fresh air.
Ray catches Marvin with a nice flurry then throws a right hand bolo that is on target this time.A masterful display of intelligence and ring generalship and an absolute turning point in the fight for me in terms of Leonard's chances of winning being taken seriously.Marvin needs to stop the rot ASAP.
I make no secret of my bias and I understand why it may not appeal to a casual fan,but it's a magnificent technical display and this is one of the greatest rounds of Leonard's career IMO.

10-9 Leonard.

Round 5.

Marvin finally starts making inroads but Ray still manages to counter some of the advances.Marvin is now realising that he needs to work when Ray holds and starts to go for the body but again Ray lands two nice lead rights.Hagler is still lunging at times but when he does land a jab,he can get to where he wants to be.Ray is tiring but Marvin's timing is still off.Marvin throws the famous lunging miss but the highlight reel doesn't tell the true story as this is a much closer round and Marvin is getting nearer to where he wants to be;the trenches.Marvin is now startting to show the world this isn't the Ray Leonard Show.A close round but given that I'm going on a must win system,this is a round for the Champion.

10-9 Hagler


Round 6.

Classic Hagler now with that long,leaning southpaw jab.He's able to get inside now and is showing much less respect for Ray's counters and attempts to keep Marvin at length.Hagler lands nice body shots and gets inside again as he seems to be ramping it up.But just as Hagler starts to plant his feet and lean in,Leonard now anticipates his position and lands some nice head shots.There's not too much sting in Leonards punches bu they are landing and scoring.Once again,Marvin throws away a round that should've been his.

10-9 Leonard


Round 7.

Marvin works off the jab and does better but still looks sluggish and is lunging again.He lands two lovely left hand leads but it seems obvious that if he could snap the jab better,he will get inside and and feed of Ray's tiredness.
Leonard counters but he's much more static during clinches and not getting out fast enough.More nice flurries but Marvin is now more than willing to take them if it means closing the gap.
Lovely finish from Marvin and closes the round with his most impressive attack so far.

10-9 Hagler


Round 8.

Classic Hagler now with the leaning jab advance working a treat and Marvin much busier during clinches.Ray throws more flurries but Hagler is starting to walk him down.Marvin's jab is now the key and although it's landing more often,he's now blocking Leonard's escape routed with hooks too as it all starts to come together.Ray still moving well but it's all Hagler when it comes to meaningful work.
Fabulous round for Hagler and his best of the night so far.

10-9 Hagler

Round 9.

Much better start by Leonard as he gets a combination off and moves away much better than he's been able to for the last few rounds.He seems invigorated and moves beautifully as the champ wastes valuable energy with wild punches that are way off target.Ray seems to be getting more weight behind his punches again but Marvin stings him with a fabulous southpaw 1-2.
Leonard looks to be in trouble but then comes one of the defining moments of his career;The showreel escape from the corner with the lightning flurries that no superlatives of mine will do justice to.
Marvin certainly contributes to the best minute and a half of the fight but this round is all about Leonard.
Big,big round!

10-9 Leonard

Round 10.

Marvin lands a crunching straight left and uses his jab well.Leonard again looks a bit static when he doesn't move away after throwing combinations.He tries to hold but Marvin takes full advantage as one would expect from someone so comfortable on the inside.Both very tired but Hagler's relentless work bags him the round just when he needs it most.

10-9 Hagler

Round 11.

Leonard is only pawing but it's enough to neutralise Marvin's advance,and when he sees an opportunity he lands a nice left hook.Hagler seems bereft of ideas but then he catches Ray on the ropes but fails to capitalise.Ray picks him off with lead rights and although he seems to gas badly,he still manages to make Marvin miss and bag the round in spite of his obvious fatigue.

10-9 Leonard

Round 12.

Ray gets on his toes but even when Marvin manages to cut him off,Leonard seems able to keep him at bay.Marvin lands a nice straight left but then misses badly with his follow up punches.He wastes more precious energy but catches Ray in the corner,but nothing lands and then comes the famous "shoeshine" flurry and he escapes the corner with another clip for the highlight reel.Leonard seems to get a burst of energy and is able to take to his toes to buy another precious few seconds.
Marvin is desperate to engage and get to Ray's body but even when he does,his famous power and accuracy desert him.Hagler finishes better but it's a clear round for Ray on account of meaningful exchanges going his way.

10-9 Leonard

Leonard wins 116-112 but I'd ask that you take into account I've gone for the must win when scoring.

I'd agree with Electric Guru that this is one of Marvin's poorest displays,and it's not indicative at all when considering what a magnificent fighter he truly was.

Like it or not this was all about Leonard,and given the backstory it was one of the few occasions when the Champion had to do a bit more to bag close rounds.
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Old 01-29-2013, 04:47 PM   #120
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Default Re: Who won? Leonard or Hagler?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PityTheFool View Post
Round 1.

Ray gives a great display of how ring generalship does not have to mean coming forward or being the "aggressor",working beautifully on the backfoot and keeping Marvin at a preferable distance and lands the only real scoring blows of the round when he neutralises Marvin's advances superbly.

10-9 Leonard

Round 2.

Marvin has a better first minute but around halfway Ray lands a nice combination and spends the rest of the round using his famous right hand lead to steal the round.Classic "stick and move" from Leonard and holding at the right times whilst leaning just enough on Marvin to stop him getting leverage in the clinch.

10-9 Leonard

Round 3.

Marvin starts well again and seems to do much better when trying to close the distance with his jab,as opposed to just trying to walk Ray down,he seems to be anticipating Rays footwork and direction now but Ray throws a nice combo to the body and then manages to once again take the round by doing more in the second half.Closer but Ray shades it by virtue of doing more again in the latter stages.

10-9 Leonard

Round 4.

Once again,Marvin lands the first meaningful blows but starts to lunge again,and Ray starts to throw 1-2's followed up by holding Marvin to stop him in his tracks.Ray throws a long blow but it's low.He's starting to gas now but he throws a couple right hand leads then when Marvin tries to go on the offensive,Ray moves beautifully and Marvin in punching fresh air.
Ray catches Marvin with a nice flurry then throws a right hand bolo that is on target this time.A masterful display of intelligence and ring generalship and an absolute turning point in the fight for me in terms of Leonard's chances of winning being taken seriously.Marvin needs to stop the rot ASAP.
I make no secret of my bias and I understand why it may not appeal to a casual fan,but it's a magnificent technical display and this is one of the greatest rounds of Leonard's career IMO.

10-9 Leonard.

Round 5.

Marvin finally starts making inroads but Ray still manages to counter some of the advances.Marvin is now realising that he needs to work when Ray holds and starts to go for the body but again Ray lands two nice lead rights.Hagler is still lunging at times but when he does land a jab,he can get to where he wants to be.Ray is tiring but Marvin's timing is still off.Marvin throws the famous lunging miss but the highlight reel doesn't tell the true story as this is a much closer round and Marvin is getting nearer to where he wants to be;the trenches.Marvin is now startting to show the world this isn't the Ray Leonard Show.A close round but given that I'm going on a must win system,this is a round for the Champion.

10-9 Hagler


Round 6.

Classic Hagler now with that long,leaning southpaw jab.He's able to get inside now and is showing much less respect for Ray's counters and attempts to keep Marvin at length.Hagler lands nice body shots and gets inside again as he seems to be ramping it up.But just as Hagler starts to plant his feet and lean in,Leonard now anticipates his position and lands some nice head shots.There's not too much sting in Leonards punches bu they are landing and scoring.Once again,Marvin throws away a round that should've been his.

10-9 Leonard


Round 7.

Marvin works off the jab and does better but still looks sluggish and is lunging again.He lands two lovely left hand leads but it seems obvious that if he could snap the jab better,he will get inside and and feed of Ray's tiredness.
Leonard counters but he's much more static during clinches and not getting out fast enough.More nice flurries but Marvin is now more than willing to take them if it means closing the gap.
Lovely finish from Marvin and closes the round with his most impressive attack so far.

10-9 Hagler


Round 8.

Classic Hagler now with the leaning jab advance working a treat and Marvin much busier during clinches.Ray throws more flurries but Hagler is starting to walk him down.Marvin's jab is now the key and although it's landing more often,he's now blocking Leonard's escape routed with hooks too as it all starts to come together.Ray still moving well but it's all Hagler when it comes to meaningful work.
Fabulous round for Hagler and his best of the night so far.

10-9 Hagler

Round 9.

Much better start by Leonard as he gets a combination off and moves away much better than he's been able to for the last few rounds.He seems invigorated and moves beautifully as the champ wastes valuable energy with wild punches that are way off target.Ray seems to be getting more weight behind his punches again but Marvin stings him with a fabulous southpaw 1-2.
Leonard looks to be in trouble but then comes one of the defining moments of his career;The showreel escape from the corner with the lightning flurries that no superlatives of mine will do justice to.
Marvin certainly contributes to the best minute and a half of the fight but this round is all about Leonard.
Big,big round!

10-9 Leonard

Round 10.

Marvin lands a crunching straight left and uses his jab well.Leonard again looks a bit static when he doesn't move away after throwing combinations.He tries to hold but Marvin takes full advantage as one would expect from someone so comfortable on the inside.Both very tired but Hagler's relentless work bags him the round just when he needs it most.

10-9 Hagler

Round 11.

Leonard is only pawing but it's enough to neutralise Marvin's advance,and when he sees an opportunity he lands a nice left hook.Hagler seems bereft of ideas but then he catches Ray on the ropes but fails to capitalise.Ray picks him off with lead rights and although he seems to gas badly,he still manages to make Marvin miss and bag the round in spite of his obvious fatigue.

10-9 Leonard

Round 12.

Ray gets on his toes but even when Marvin manages to cut him off,Leonard seems able to keep him at bay.Marvin lands a nice straight left but then misses badly with his follow up punches.He wastes more precious energy but catches Ray in the corner,but nothing lands and then comes the famous "shoeshine" flurry and he escapes the corner with another clip for the highlight reel.Leonard seems to get a burst of energy and is able to take to his toes to buy another precious few seconds.
Marvin is desperate to engage and get to Ray's body but even when he does,his famous power and accuracy desert him.Hagler finishes better but it's a clear round for Ray on account of meaningful exchanges going his way.

10-9 Leonard

Leonard wins 116-112 but I'd ask that you take into account I've gone for the must win when scoring.

I'd agree with Electric Guru that this is one of Marvin's poorest displays,and it's not indicative at all when considering what a magnificent fighter he truly was.

Like it or not this was all about Leonard,and given the backstory it was one of the few occasions when the Champion had to do a bit more to bag close rounds.
I enjoyed reading that Thanks for the time and the effort.

Hagler was inactive for too long IMO. Fighters lose something if they stay away too long. Remember I spoke about 'live prey' with you? Hagler found himself chasing a gazelle that had a bit of sting itself, and he struggled to corner it and impose himself.

I take it you've read SRL's book?
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