Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

[Flea Man]

There's no footage of the Ebihara fight.

Only reason I keep slagging you off is because you are making statements and assumptions. For example 'Harada only scraped past these opponents' because you've seen the scorecards on boxrec.

Apologies if I offended you with the Essex remark was just a gag. Your university tutelage means nothing as to your application of boxing knowledge so doesn't change my opinion in that respect.

Good luck learning but seems to me you've made your mind up already.

[LittleRed]

Opening salvo.

We measure fighters about 4 ways- longevity, consistency/dominance (two sides of the same coin but still distinct), quality of opposition, and head to head. For the purposes of this leave h2h out as that us by far the most subjective and probably the least useful since it rewards fighters who peak extremely high Evan if only for a few fights (call this the Buster Douglas problem).

Let's look at Jofre and Harada in terms of the first two. In terms of longevity there isn't a contest; Haradas first and last title win took place five years apart. Let's give Harada all the way to the Famechon which I think he won, and that's eight years. Jofres first title win: 1960. His last was 13 years later in 1973. Even If we take of the three years he was retired that is still longer than Haradas entire career. And Jofre kept fighting and winning.

Consistency and dominance are harder to measure as they are subjective but it is the authors opinion that Jofre was Haradas superior in both; not by large margins but by enough. Harada could be argued to be more accomplished as he won undisputed titles in two divisions and nearly nabbed a piece of a third. But Jofre is certainly more constant, not having those pesky losses that Harada does. Jofre was never stopped as Harada was twice and the draws that dot his record are more indicative of the quirky Brazilian scoring system than an inability to best local competition. Jofre wasn't just winning fights; he was knocking the best fighters in. the world out. Let's give them a tie for dominance, Haradas ass whippings being matched by Jofres knockouts. Surely though Jofre was more consistent putting together longer winning streaks. Hell the only man who best Jofre was Harada and even those fights were close. I've got Jofre up a little so far.

Flea counterpoint!

[AlFrancis]

Originally Posted by LittleRed

Opening salvo.

We measure fighters about 4 ways- longevity, consistency/dominance (two sides of the same coin but still distinct), quality of opposition, and head to head. For the purposes of this leave h2h out as that us by far the most subjective and probably the least useful since it rewards fighters who peak extremely high Evan if only for a few fights (call this the Buster Douglas problem).

Let's look at Jofre and Harada in terms of the first two. In terms of longevity there isn't a contest; Haradas first and last title win took place five years apart. Let's give Harada all the way to the Famechon which I think he won, and that's eight years. Jofres first title win: 1960. His last was 13 years later in 1973. Even If we take of the three years he was retired that is still longer than Haradas entire career. And Jofre kept fighting and winning.

When you look at the longevity of these to you've got to take into account lifestyles. I won't say Harada was a party animal but he did have a tendency to blow up between fights. Jofre on the other hand was a vegetarian I think who kept his weight down, kept himself in shape and had a nice 3 years sabbatical which he started when he was still a relatively young man.

[lora]

Jofre for clearly for longevity and consistency.

Jofre for dominance.

Harada clearly for quality of opposition.

[LittleRed]

Originally Posted by AlFrancis

When you look at the longevity of these to you've got to take into account lifestyles. I won't say Harada was a party animal but he did have a tendency to blow up between fights. Jofre on the other hand was a vegetarian I think who kept his weight down, kept himself in shape and had a nice 3 years sabbatical which he started when he was still a relatively young man.

True. But its not Jofres fault Harada liked the parties and the sexy times. And unlike say Duran, Haradas habits cost him.

Originally Posted by lora

Jofre for clearly for longevity and consistency.

Jofre for dominance.

Harada clearly for quality of opposition.

Yes. I'll address that. Give me some time. Soon.

[IntentionalButt]

The names Dib and Mathebula shouldn't be a part of any conversation regarding placement on a top 500 ATG list, let alone 50.

[Vic-JofreBRASIL]

I need to read this thread, looks interesting.

On Nonito as a top 50...nah, not at all, and I really like the guy, and I give the modern guys high praises, always...

[AlFrancis]

Originally Posted by LittleRed

True. But its not Jofres fault Harada liked the parties and the sexy times. And unlike say Duran, Haradas habits cost him.



Yes. I'll address that. Give me some time. Soon.

I'm not blaming Jofre for Harada's habits, I don't even know if Harada was a party animal, I just know that he had trouble keeping his weight down.

I was just making an observation. To be honest, for me, I don't know if longevity should really be an issue.
Some fighters start young and are finished young. Some fighters get out when they know they're past their best, some fighters carry on and it's disastrous and some carry on and get away with it.
Sanchez for example didn't have longevity but he was still a great fighter.

[Flea Man]

LittleRed

I do rate Jofre better for all those things. Hence why Harada's wins over him see him rank so highly for me, knowing what I know of Jofre if he'd never have fought Harada I'd scoff at anyone giving Masahiko a chance to beat him.

Also, Harada's short career is something I give him credit for; to achieve what he did in such few years is an outstanding achievement.

That's why I rank Foreman so high in my HW list; winning the title at his age is enough to see him supercede fighters with more impressive wins on the resume.

There's where I stand and it's a conclusion I only came to only about 18 months ago or so.

As it stands both men sit comfortably in the 30-40 bracket. Harada for being (arguably) the man from fly to feather (even if those reigns were interrupted, hence why he isn't an Armstrong-esque force) and in terms of longevity and K.O losses Ray Leonard ranks very highly for some incredible wins and unfathomable P4P achievements despite less fights and more time out than Harada. Do I rank Harada in the 11-20 bracket as I do Ray?

Nope, but he deserves to be mentioned alongside the Mike Spinks', Emile Griffith's and Carlos Ortiz's (and Eder Jofre's) of that 'bracket'.

IMO of course.

Proceed if you have any qualms with the above and I'll be happy to answer but hopefully you'll see where I'm coming from now.

[Flea Man]

Originally Posted by LittleRed

True. But its not Jofres fault Harada liked the parties and the sexy times. And unlike say Duran, Haradas habits cost him.



Yes. I'll address that. Give me some time. Soon.

I feel like Kasparov Vs Deep Blue

You going round the houses to see if you can make me slip up (won't happen) is a bit worrying

[Flea Man]

Originally Posted by IntentionalButt

The names Dib and Mathebula shouldn't be a part of any conversation regarding placement on a top 500 ATG list, let alone 50.

I hadn't been there yet but I can almost guarantee the reply will be something like this:

Originally Posted by anj

Still better than losing to Esparza lol

[AlFrancis]

There's film of Esparza on youtube. A lot of those unsung Mexicans were dangerous opponents for anyone.
I'm sure all the greats had tough fights on the way up sometimes even when they were at their peak.
That loss by Harada doesn't take anything away his standing as far as I'm concerned.
My old fella used to tell me, doesn't matter who you are there is always someone that will give you trouble.

[Flea Man]

Originally Posted by Vic-JofreBRASIL

I need to read this thread, looks interesting.

On Nonito as a top 50...nah, not at all, and I really like the guy, and I give the modern guys high praises, always...

You're more qualified than I to talk on the subject. Address every point you disagree with re: Harada>Jofre please mate

A funny thread and a good blend of differing opinions. Enjoy

[Flea Man]

Originally Posted by AlFrancis

There's film of Esparza on youtube. A lot of those unsung Mexicans were dangerous opponents for anyone.
I'm sure all the greats had tough fights on the way up sometimes even when they were at their peak.
That loss by Harada doesn't take anything away his standing as far as I'm concerned.
My old fella used to tell me, doesn't matter who you are there is always someone that will give you trouble.

I just tend to think the fact he proved his ability to beat superior stylists in a similar vain showed he could apply himself against the very best.

I don't think these losses denote weakness, though they do show a lack of dedication (at times) which of course he loses points for. Same goes for Duran. We know that on his best day he'd beat Laing, so we don't need to assume that losing to Laing makes him a lesser fighter. It does suggest a lack of consistency at that point of his career, which he'd lose points for (whereas Benny Leonard's incredible run is without reproach)

Further to LittleRed's point about 'we rate fighters by...' I agree but I also think you have to take each guy on a case by case basis.

[Vic-JofreBRASIL]

Originally Posted by Flea Man

You're more qualified than I to talk on the subject. Address every point you disagree with re: Harada>Jofre please mate

A funny thread and a good blend of differing opinions. Enjoy

Nah, c´mon, don´t be modest Flea. You know a lot about Jofre, Harada and etc....
I didn´t read it yet btw I need to spare some quality time for ESB fun time.