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Old 01-29-2013, 04:12 PM   #121
Bill Butcher
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Default Re: Who won? Leonard or Hagler?

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Originally Posted by PityTheFool View Post
Round 1.

Ray gives a great display of how ring generalship does not have to mean coming forward or being the "aggressor",working beautifully on the backfoot and keeping Marvin at a preferable distance and lands the only real scoring blows of the round when he neutralises Marvin's advances superbly.

10-9 Leonard

Round 2.

Marvin has a better first minute but around halfway Ray lands a nice combination and spends the rest of the round using his famous right hand lead to steal the round.Classic "stick and move" from Leonard and holding at the right times whilst leaning just enough on Marvin to stop him getting leverage in the clinch.

10-9 Leonard

Round 3.

Marvin starts well again and seems to do much better when trying to close the distance with his jab,as opposed to just trying to walk Ray down,he seems to be anticipating Rays footwork and direction now but Ray throws a nice combo to the body and then manages to once again take the round by doing more in the second half.Closer but Ray shades it by virtue of doing more again in the latter stages.

10-9 Leonard

Round 4.

Once again,Marvin lands the first meaningful blows but starts to lunge again,and Ray starts to throw 1-2's followed up by holding Marvin to stop him in his tracks.Ray throws a long blow but it's low.He's starting to gas now but he throws a couple right hand leads then when Marvin tries to go on the offensive,Ray moves beautifully and Marvin in punching fresh air.
Ray catches Marvin with a nice flurry then throws a right hand bolo that is on target this time.A masterful display of intelligence and ring generalship and an absolute turning point in the fight for me in terms of Leonard's chances of winning being taken seriously.Marvin needs to stop the rot ASAP.
I make no secret of my bias and I understand why it may not appeal to a casual fan,but it's a magnificent technical display and this is one of the greatest rounds of Leonard's career IMO.

10-9 Leonard.

Round 5.

Marvin finally starts making inroads but Ray still manages to counter some of the advances.Marvin is now realising that he needs to work when Ray holds and starts to go for the body but again Ray lands two nice lead rights.Hagler is still lunging at times but when he does land a jab,he can get to where he wants to be.Ray is tiring but Marvin's timing is still off.Marvin throws the famous lunging miss but the highlight reel doesn't tell the true story as this is a much closer round and Marvin is getting nearer to where he wants to be;the trenches.Marvin is now startting to show the world this isn't the Ray Leonard Show.A close round but given that I'm going on a must win system,this is a round for the Champion.

10-9 Hagler


Round 6.

Classic Hagler now with that long,leaning southpaw jab.He's able to get inside now and is showing much less respect for Ray's counters and attempts to keep Marvin at length.Hagler lands nice body shots and gets inside again as he seems to be ramping it up.But just as Hagler starts to plant his feet and lean in,Leonard now anticipates his position and lands some nice head shots.There's not too much sting in Leonards punches bu they are landing and scoring.Once again,Marvin throws away a round that should've been his.

10-9 Leonard


Round 7.

Marvin works off the jab and does better but still looks sluggish and is lunging again.He lands two lovely left hand leads but it seems obvious that if he could snap the jab better,he will get inside and and feed of Ray's tiredness.
Leonard counters but he's much more static during clinches and not getting out fast enough.More nice flurries but Marvin is now more than willing to take them if it means closing the gap.
Lovely finish from Marvin and closes the round with his most impressive attack so far.

10-9 Hagler


Round 8.

Classic Hagler now with the leaning jab advance working a treat and Marvin much busier during clinches.Ray throws more flurries but Hagler is starting to walk him down.Marvin's jab is now the key and although it's landing more often,he's now blocking Leonard's escape routed with hooks too as it all starts to come together.Ray still moving well but it's all Hagler when it comes to meaningful work.
Fabulous round for Hagler and his best of the night so far.

10-9 Hagler

Round 9.

Much better start by Leonard as he gets a combination off and moves away much better than he's been able to for the last few rounds.He seems invigorated and moves beautifully as the champ wastes valuable energy with wild punches that are way off target.Ray seems to be getting more weight behind his punches again but Marvin stings him with a fabulous southpaw 1-2.
Leonard looks to be in trouble but then comes one of the defining moments of his career;The showreel escape from the corner with the lightning flurries that no superlatives of mine will do justice to.
Marvin certainly contributes to the best minute and a half of the fight but this round is all about Leonard.
Big,big round!

10-9 Leonard

Round 10.

Marvin lands a crunching straight left and uses his jab well.Leonard again looks a bit static when he doesn't move away after throwing combinations.He tries to hold but Marvin takes full advantage as one would expect from someone so comfortable on the inside.Both very tired but Hagler's relentless work bags him the round just when he needs it most.

10-9 Hagler

Round 11.

Leonard is only pawing but it's enough to neutralise Marvin's advance,and when he sees an opportunity he lands a nice left hook.Hagler seems bereft of ideas but then he catches Ray on the ropes but fails to capitalise.Ray picks him off with lead rights and although he seems to gas badly,he still manages to make Marvin miss and bag the round in spite of his obvious fatigue.

10-9 Leonard

Round 12.

Ray gets on his toes but even when Marvin manages to cut him off,Leonard seems able to keep him at bay.Marvin lands a nice straight left but then misses badly with his follow up punches.He wastes more precious energy but catches Ray in the corner,but nothing lands and then comes the famous "shoeshine" flurry and he escapes the corner with another clip for the highlight reel.Leonard seems to get a burst of energy and is able to take to his toes to buy another precious few seconds.
Marvin is desperate to engage and get to Ray's body but even when he does,his famous power and accuracy desert him.Hagler finishes better but it's a clear round for Ray on account of meaningful exchanges going his way.

10-9 Leonard

Leonard wins 116-112 but I'd ask that you take into account I've gone for the must win when scoring.

I'd agree with Electric Guru that this is one of Marvin's poorest displays,and it's not indicative at all when considering what a magnificent fighter he truly was.

Like it or not this was all about Leonard,and given the backstory it was one of the few occasions when the Champion had to do a bit more to bag close rounds.
I gave Hagler a close round 9 but other than that I have the exact same card.

115-113 (7-5) Leonard
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Old 01-29-2013, 04:22 PM   #122
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Default Re: Who won? Leonard or Hagler?

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I gave Hagler a close round 9 but other than that I have the exact same card.

115-113 (7-5) Leonard
Although my description suggests Ray took the round convincingly,there's definitely an argument for Marvin having a share.His attack was probably the hardest blows to have landed but Ray's showcase moment and better start was what stuck in my mind Bill.
As I said,Marvin made a big contributuion to that round.
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Old 01-29-2013, 04:25 PM   #123
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Default Re: Who won? Leonard or Hagler?

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Although my description suggests Ray took the round convincingly,there's definitely an argument for Marvin having a share.His attack was probably the hardest blows to have landed but Ray's showcase moment and better start was what stuck in my mind Bill.
As I said,Marvin made a big contributuion to that round.
Yeah, very close round... & best round of the fight action wise.
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Old 01-29-2013, 04:42 PM   #124
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Default Re: Who won? Leonard or Hagler?

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I enjoyed reading that Thanks for the time and the effort.

Hagler was inactive for too long IMO. Fighters lose something if they stay away too long. Remember I spoke about 'live prey' with you? Hagler found himself chasing a gazelle that had a bit of sting itself, and he struggled to corner it and impose himself.

I take it you've read SRL's book?
Within about three and a half days of release.
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Old 01-29-2013, 04:44 PM   #125
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Default Re: Who won? Leonard or Hagler?

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I enjoyed reading that Thanks for the time and the effort.

Hagler was inactive for too long IMO. Fighters lose something if they stay away too long. Remember I spoke about 'live prey' with you? Hagler found himself chasing a gazelle that had a bit of sting itself, and he struggled to corner it and impose himself.

I take it you've read SRL's book?
He doesn't do it enough here but I always found the way Marvin could jab on his tiptoes whilst travelling forward at the same time a sight to behold.
Don't you think it was crystal clear that Marvin's jab would have changed the fight had it been snappier on the night mate?
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Old 01-29-2013, 05:00 PM   #126
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Default Re: Who won? Leonard or Hagler?

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He doesn't do it enough here but I always found the way Marvin could jab on his tiptoes whilst travelling forward at the same time a sight to behold.
Don't you think it was crystal clear that Marvin's jab would have changed the fight had it been snappier on the night mate?
Would of given him a foothold to have some sort of say in the tempo. As opposed to what actually happened, which was Ray controlling it with his footwork.

When you have a fighter like a Leonard, or a Mayweather you have to occupy their brain. Jab! Double and tripple it, don't try to take their head off but just engage their thought process so they can't focus completely on what they're going to do.

There's one moment that's often underlooked. It's around about the 4th or 5th round, they clinch, the ref calls for a break, and Leonard physically shoves Hagler half way across the ring. THAT was a huge psycological plus for Ray IMO, Showing Hagler that he wasn't going to be bulldozed.
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Old 01-29-2013, 05:04 PM   #127
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Default Re: Who won? Leonard or Hagler?

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Would of given him a foothold to have some sort of say in the tempo. As opposed to what actually happened, which was Ray controlling it with his footwork.

When you have a fighter like a Leonard, or a Mayweather you have to occupy their brain. Jab! Double and tripple it, don't try to take their head off but just engage their thought process so they can't focus completely on what they're going to do.

There's one moment that's often underlooked. It's around about the 4th or 5th round, they clinch, the ref calls for a break, and Leonard physically shoves Hagler half way across the ring. THAT was a huge psycological plus for Ray IMO, Showing Hagler that he wasn't going to be bulldozed.
The fourth is the pivotal round of the fight for me,and as I said,one of the best of Ray's career.He absolutely outhinks Marvin and shows his versatlity is second to none.
I actually felt the same way at some points of Ward-Froch,because I didn't realise how technically brilliant and versatile Ward was until then.
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Old 01-29-2013, 05:06 PM   #128
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Default Re: Who won? Leonard or Hagler?

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The fourth is the pivotal round of the fight for me,and as I said,one of the best of Ray's career.He absolutely outhinks Marvin and shows his versatlity is second to none.
I actually felt the same way at some points of Ward-Froch,because I didn't realise how technically brilliant and versatile Ward was until then.
I had threads and page long posts on what both Ward and Froch could do to beat the other, and it hit me literally two hours before the fight, that Ward was going to be the physically stronger guy, and that ended Carl's chances.

I agree with Ward, magnificent brain.
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