Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

[Lord Tywin]

Originally Posted by KuRuPT

Again

just don't see greb as the best MW in history.. He didn't do enough and beat enough quality in that division to be considered so. It's like saying Duran is a better Welterweight than SRL.. Because he has some good wins there... and is the better p4p fighter.. than by some of your standards is lower and upper weight jump victories matter in a division that he didn't fight in as much.. That makes ZERO sense. Greb did his best work at LHW.. PERIOD. Conflating what he could've done at MW with what he did at LWH is faulty reasoning and not logical.

Outside of possibly Robinson who has more quality wins at middleweight than Greb?

Its my understanding that he fought a lot of matches at higher weights but he also fought plenty against great fighters at middleweight. In fact at a middleweight limit that is two pounds lighter than it is today in an era of same day weigh ins.

[rodney]

Monzon #1.
He was a monster for 160 lbs.
Way too big and too tough for the rest of them.
Dominating.

[KuRuPT]

Which "great" MW are you speaking of?

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by Lord Tywin

Outside of possibly Robinson who has more quality wins at middleweight than Greb?

Its my understanding that he fought a lot of matches at higher weights but he also fought plenty against great fighters at middleweight. In fact at a middleweight limit that is two pounds lighter than it is today in an era of same day weigh ins.

To say that though Harry Greb beat the best array of Lightheavywights, Greb didnt beat any top middleweights is silly...Harry Greb at any time in his illustrious career DID and COULD have made 160 pounds when he had to...And here is a list of some middleweights Greb beat...Mickey Walker, Tiger Flowers, Jeff Smith, Mike Gibbons, Eddie McGoorty, Soldier Bartfield, Augie Ratner, Buck Crouse, Frank Mantell, George Chip, Al McCoy etc.
These MWS compare with any later group of 160 pounders. GREB was allways a middleweight when he had to be and in his last year before his death Greb came in at 158 pounds and beat the Toy Bulldog handily...
When Greb fought the "big boys", he ate what he wanted to ,enjoyed life in between bouts, and still licked the likes of Gene Tunney, Tommy Gibbons, Jack Dillon, Tommy Loughran, Billy Miske, Gunboat Smith, Maxie Rosenbloom, Kid Norfolk, Bill Brennan, Willie Meehan etc. Tell me what MW can you name that could fight the roster of top fighters from MW to heavyweights and do half as well ? Answer truly, NONE...

[Manassa]

Burt speaks the truth on this one. The most important point is that right through his career, Greb was able to make the middleweight limit, in contrast to an Ezzard Charles, who fully outgrew the division.

[KuRuPT]

Ummmm Burt.. I see only ONE great MW on his resume.. and that one he has a losing record 2. The other notable name on his resume was a better Welterweight than he was a MW... So no, his MW resume isn't the best thing since sliced bread like you like to make out all his accomplishments. Greb is a better p4p fighter no doubt.. but going strictly by his MW victories... he's not.. and really he's lucky to get 4th

[Manassa]

Originally Posted by KuRuPT

Ummmm Burt.. I see only ONE great MW on his resume.. and that one he has a losing record 2. The other notable name on his resume was a better Welterweight than he was a MW... So no, his MW resume isn't the best thing since sliced bread like you like to make out all his accomplishments. Greb is a better p4p fighter no doubt.. but going strictly by his MW victories... he's not.. and really he's lucky to get 4th

Note that Greb's losing record to Flowers essentially comes down to two very controversial losses after he'd already been suffering severe visual impairment and was on the slide anyway due to his age and the hectic career behind him.

Walker was an extremely good middleweight despite being a better welterweight, much like Thomas Hearns.

You seem to allow very little slack; it's almost as though you're Boxreccing Greb's fights under 160lbs and counting only those. The point has already been made that Greb was always able to make the limit, so surely his three-pounds-over-the-limit victory over Jimmy Slattery (Hall of Fame middleweight and later light heavyweight) would count in his favour, just like Carlos Monzon's non-title bout against contender Fraser Scott would add to his list of reputable middleweight opponents, no?

[Lord Tywin]

Kurupt has convinced me. Harry Greb's record sucks.

Fraser Scott a reputable middleweight opponent?

Scott had only won two of his last six before fighting Monzon and had never really beaten anyone outside of a shot Denny Moyer.

I saw Scott fight four times including his fights with Monzon and Benvenuti and both were stopped prematurely. Home town stoppages if there ever were any. Max Cohen gave him a worse beating than those two.

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by KuRuPT

Ummmm Burt.. I see only ONE great MW on his resume.. and that one he has a losing record 2. The other notable name on his resume was a better Welterweight than he was a MW... So no, his MW resume isn't the best thing since sliced bread like you like to make out all his accomplishments. Greb is a better p4p fighter no doubt.. but going strictly by his MW victories... he's not.. and really he's lucky to get 4th

K, so to you a Mike Gibbons, a Jeff Smith, an Eddie McGoorty,Buck Crouse, George Chip, Johnny Wilson, Mickey Walker etc, are not "notable" names ?
Have you read up on those middleweights so you can dismiss their achievments so readily.? Greb when he was on a roll fought every middleweight of note, regardless of colour, or style, bouncing around from town to town on trains, week to week, and not being able to nurse his
wounds so name me one of your favorite MWs, having the stamina, or courage to duplicate what this amazing MIDDLEWEIGHT accomplished in
his 300 bout career.? K, Don't you think that for Greb to lick the best MWs of his time, and defeating great LH Hall of Famers time and again, Greb
HAD to have tremendous skills, stamina and toughness, unparalleled in middleweight history ? If not HE, WHO ?.

[Manassa]

Originally Posted by Lord Tywin

Fraser Scott a reputable middleweight opponent?

Yes. Top ten rated is reputable. It was an example off the top of my head - I didn't think the anti-Monzon brigade were going to show up otherwise I would have embellished it with 'although Fraser Scott was never a world beater.'

[Nightcrawler]

fuck, it's just hard to take a knock against greb's resume. never thought to try...kinda glad i didn't

on resume, greb
on dominance and consistency of reign, monzon (or hopkins but c'mon)
on marvelousness, hagler

[Lord Tywin]

Originally Posted by Manassa

Yes. Top ten rated is reputable. It was an example off the top of my head - I didn't think the anti-Monzon brigade were going to show up otherwise I would have embellished it with 'although Fraser Scott was never a world beater.'

I doubt that argument would convince me even if Scott was a top ten contender when he fought Monzon but the reality was that he wasnt. Go back and check the ratings.

I realize ratings arent the most reliable but when youve lost four of your last six, and the two fights you won were against guys who had lost their last five or six bouts in a row odds are you either arent getting rated or dont deserve your rating.

Did you ever see Scott fight? He was a really nice guy but he wasnt much of a fighter.

His fight with Benvenuti was a horrible stoppage, not that he would have won anyway.

His fight with Monzon was a worse stoppage than Monzon's bout with Denny Moyer, which was very controversial.

He took a bad beating from Max Cohen. That fight probably should have been stopped, and definately would have been stopped in Italy or Argentina had Cohen been Italian or Argentinean.

[Manassa]

Originally Posted by Lord Tywin

I doubt that argument would convince me even if Scott was a top ten contender when he fought Monzon but the reality was that he wasnt. Go back and check the ratings.

I realize ratings arent the most reliable but when youve lost four of your last six, and the two fights you won were against guys who had lost their last five or six bouts in a row odds are you either arent getting rated or dont deserve your rating.

Did you ever see Scott fight? He was a really nice guy but he wasnt much of a fighter.

His fight with Benvenuti was a horrible stoppage, not that he would have won anyway.

His fight with Monzon was a worse stoppage than Monzon's bout with Denny Moyer, which was very controversial.

He took a bad beating from Max Cohen. That fight probably should have been stopped, and definately would have been stopped in Italy or Argentina had Cohen been Italian or Argentinean.

I appreciate your passion here but it really is a bit unnecessary; like I said I grabbed the first parallel example that occurred to me to illustrate a point about Greb. I really didn't think I'd be pounced upon. Scott was at one time top ten rated and to me that is loosely defined as reputable. Don't make out like I'm making a case for Monzon here.

[Flea Man]

Mickey Walker was at his best around middle IMO.

Strong as fuck.

And went on to be highly ranked at HW.

Amazing win for Greb.

[KuRuPT]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

K, so to you a Mike Gibbons, a Jeff Smith, an Eddie McGoorty,Buck Crouse, George Chip, Johnny Wilson, Mickey Walker etc, are not "notable" names ?
Have you read up on those middleweights so you can dismiss their achievments so readily.? Greb when he was on a roll fought every middleweight of note, regardless of colour, or style, bouncing around from town to town on trains, week to week, and not being able to nurse his
wounds so name me one of your favorite MWs, having the stamina, or courage to duplicate what this amazing MIDDLEWEIGHT accomplished in
his 300 bout career.? K, Don't you think that for Greb to lick the best MWs of his time, and defeating great LH Hall of Famers time and again, Greb
HAD to have tremendous skills, stamina and toughness, unparalleled in middleweight history ? If not HE, WHO ?.

Burt, they are "notable" names but nothing more. They don't stand the test of time is my point. They were somewhat notable for the time, but not much more than that. Now, when we take a look at their record.. their notability goes down even more. Much like Gunboat Smith.. Shannon Briggs.. These guys were both notable in their time, but looking back.. they really aren't in an all time sense. I already agree Greb is the better p4p fighter between all of them, and maybe of all time. Yet, we can't include his LHW.. and HW victories in that.. just because he still couldn't made the weight. It's like the Roberto Duran analogy I used. Should I say Roberto is one of the best WW of all time.. because he had some decent wins there... then go on to illustrate is dominate run at LW.. and how he fought at WW before SRL and could've gained weight to WW and beat people there even though he didn't.. WHY because HE COULD'VE? No.. just like I don't take his exploits and MW and conflate them with him being able to lose weight and make the WW limit and go.. shit if he was beating bigger guys.. he couldn't cut weight and beat those guys as well. You have to go by WHAT THEY ACTUALLY DID.. Not some fantasy hypothetical on what they could've done. Thus, Greb doesn't have a MW resume that stacks up to the top 4 imo.