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Old 01-30-2013, 04:14 AM   #46
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Default Re: Who were the most durable heavyweights ever?

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Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie View Post
Bollocks! The dude had over 100 proffesional fights with literally no defense outside of catching punches with his face, met some of the biggest punchers of the era Max and Buddy Baer, Lou Nova, Lorenzo Pack and of course Joe Louis. He was only decked once in over 100 proffesional fights and it was on his 106th (IIRC) fight that he was decked by Louis. Name one other Heavyweight in history who went over 100 proffesional fights without being decked, can't do it because there isn't one.

Being decked once in over 100 proffesional fights with no defense and you say he wasn't in the elite echelon of durability
How many of those opponents were over two hundred pounds though? How many would today be classified as small cruiserweights or light heavyweights? How many would qualify even lower than that?
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:07 AM   #47
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Default Re: Who were the most durable heavyweights ever?

By today's standards. And who cares about today's standards??
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:36 AM   #48
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Default Re: Who were the most durable heavyweights ever?

^^^^^

Exactly.

This shit canning of past achievments because the old guys were a bit smaller (comparatively, even though they were still decent sized,skilled,fit guys who knew how to throw a punch ) is one of the more ridiculous things you see on boxing forums.

A 200 pound guy stays upright for a 15 round hammering against a 190 pounder yet it gets downplayed because the other guy isn't 6'7 and 240 pounds? So what.

Tough is tough, and if you were a hard man back then then you should be still considered a hard man now without holding the passage of time and advancements in nutrition, science and PED's against them.
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:01 AM   #49
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Default Re: Who were the most durable heavyweights ever?

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How many of those opponents were over two hundred pounds though? How many would today be classified as small cruiserweights or light heavyweights? How many would qualify even lower than that?
The big punchers I mentioned were all over 200lbs actually...but anyway young griffo hit the nail on the head tough is tough, Cruiserweight Haye hurt Valuev more than anybody and he had like 70lbs on him, Fitz damn near killed Dunkhorst, Dempsey nearly killed Willard, Marciano did the same to Carmine Vingo etc. etc.
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:03 AM   #50
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Default Re: Who were the most durable heavyweights ever?

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Originally Posted by young griffo View Post
^^^^^

Exactly.

This shit canning of past achievments because the old guys were a bit smaller (comparatively, even though they were still decent sized,skilled,fit guys who knew how to throw a punch ) is one of the more ridiculous things you see on boxing forums.

A 200 pound guy stays upright for a 15 round hammering against a 190 pounder yet it gets downplayed because the other guy isn't 6'7 and 240 pounds? So what.

Tough is tough, and if you were a hard man back then then you should be still considered a hard man now without holding the passage of time and advancements in nutrition, science and PED's against them.


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Old 01-30-2013, 01:48 PM   #51
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Default Re: Who were the most durable heavyweights ever?

Quote:
Originally Posted by young griffo View Post
^^^^^

Exactly.

This shit canning of past achievments because the old guys were a bit smaller (comparatively, even though they were still decent sized,skilled,fit guys who knew how to throw a punch ) is one of the more ridiculous things you see on boxing forums.

A 200 pound guy stays upright for a 15 round hammering against a 190 pounder yet it gets downplayed because the other guy isn't 6'7 and 240 pounds? So what.

Tough is tough, and if you were a hard man back then then you should be still considered a hard man now without holding the passage of time and advancements in nutrition, science and PED's against them.
This is durability we're talking about, not toughness (more of a mental trait, and something applicable at any level of the game).

And if you're talking about most durable heavyweights ever, then you can't make allowances for past eras that were deficient in certain physical traits that are commonly found in the most durable fighters.

Big men can (on average) take more of a beating than smaller men. Big men can also (on average) deliver harder punches as well. A big man routinely taking punches from other big men known to be hard punchers is considerably more durable in my books than a big man routinely taking punches from smaller men, or a smaller man taking punches from other smaller men. Other factors come into play, of course, but that's the benchmark.

So yes, it absolutely matters.

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Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie View Post
The big punchers I mentioned were all over 200lbs actually...but anyway young griffo hit the nail on the head tough is tough, Cruiserweight Haye hurt Valuev more than anybody and he had like 70lbs on him, Fitz damn near killed Dunkhorst, Dempsey nearly killed Willard, Marciano did the same to Carmine Vingo etc. etc.
And how many of those smaller fighters destroyed other smaller opponents while being forced to bludgeon away at their larger foes? Haye had a phenomenal KO percentage at Cruiserweight, but could hardly dent Valuev. Dempsey knocked guys his own size clean out with one or two punches. He had to continually batter Willard to the canvas until Willard retired on his stool. Proves my point I think.
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:58 PM   #52
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Default Re: Who were the most durable heavyweights ever?

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Originally Posted by Absolutely! View Post
This is durability we're talking about, not toughness (more of a mental trait, and something applicable at any level of the game).

And if you're talking about most durable heavyweights ever, then you can't make allowances for past eras that were deficient in certain physical traits that are commonly found in the most durable fighters.

Big men can (on average) take more of a beating than smaller men. Big men can also (on average) deliver harder punches as well. A big man routinely taking punches from other big men known to be hard punchers is considerably more durable in my books than a big man routinely taking punches from smaller men, or a smaller man taking punches from other smaller men. Other factors come into play, of course, but that's the benchmark.

So yes, it absolutely matters.



And how many of those smaller fighters destroyed other smaller opponents while being forced to bludgeon away at their larger foes? Haye had a phenomenal KO percentage at Cruiserweight, but could hardly dent Valuev. Dempsey knocked guys his own size clean out with one or two punches. He had to continually batter Willard to the canvas until Willard retired on his stool. Proves my point I think.
Err and what point was that? Unless you've taken punches from someone who is 6'6 and 240lbs you can't be considered durable? My point was Tony Galento is one of the most durable Heavyweights ever. A man with no defence, who fought in the upper ranks of the division for a number of years, facing the biggest punchers of the era all of whom were over 200 lbs and having 116 proffesional fights and walked away with only being decked once cannot do so with being one of the most durable heavyweights ever.

Lorenzo Pack 210lbs
Joe Louis 200lbs
Lou Nova 207lbs
Max Baer 221lbs
Buddy Baer 240lbs

Ironically Joe Louis, despite being the smallest, was the only one not only to deck Galento but to legitimatley stop him, the first, last and only one to do so. Kind of goes against your point huh?
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:50 PM   #53
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Default Re: Who were the most durable heavyweights ever?

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Err and what point was that? Unless you've taken punches from someone who is 6'6 and 240lbs you can't be considered durable? My point was Tony Galento is one of the most durable Heavyweights ever. A man with no defence, who fought in the upper ranks of the division for a number of years, facing the biggest punchers of the era all of whom were over 200 lbs and having 116 proffesional fights and walked away with only being decked once cannot do so with being one of the most durable heavyweights ever.

Ironically Joe Louis, despite being the smallest, was the only one not only to deck Galento but to legitimatley stop him, the first, last and only one to do so. Kind of goes against your point huh?
Just to make a brief comparison.

Mercer took punches from Lennox, Wlad, Morrison, Holyfield, Witherspoon and Cooper, in many cases flush sustained punches in combination, and of the above was only stopped by Wlad on his feet long after his prime had ended.

Galento took punches from Louis and Max Baer (if you want to include him) and was stopped both times. A huge number of his other opponents wouldn't qualify for heavyweight or even cruiserweight nowadays. If you think that doesn't make a difference then look at Tomasz Adamek, considered iron chinned at cruiser but china chinned at heavy.

Galento was no doubt one of the toughest men of Louis's era, but he hasn't shown the same type of insane resilience as a McCall, Chuvalo, Cobb, Mercer etc to warrant a top ten spot for me. If you want to stick him on be my guest.
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