Nonito donaire, a top 50 atg?

[Flea Man]

Famechon

I rate Carruthers higher than most but he suffers from a short prime.

[Vic-JofreBRASIL]

Originally Posted by Flea Man

Nonito is a massive cutter.

Originally Posted by Flea Man

I have Harada above Jofre in the 30-35 bracket.

Anyone disagrees? Come at me.

Originally Posted by lora

Jofre for clearly for longevity and consistency.

Jofre for dominance.

Harada clearly for quality of opposition.

Originally Posted by LittleRed

True. But its not Jofres fault Harada liked the parties and the sexy times. And unlike say Duran, Haradas habits cost him.

I liked what lora and LR said.....basically is what I think too...

In my mind, consistency is something really important (when you are not ducking top fighters, obviously, I´m not talking about consistency that is earned through over-protectionism, you know what I mean)

The quality of opposition clearly belongs to Harada, nobody can say otherwise....impossible.

The problem is that, unfortunately, Jofre´s opposition became obscure... actually it was obscure even at the time, with some exceptions like Ernesto Miranda, Jose Smecca (gave Eder one of his toughest fights) and a few others relatively known (at least in South America) at those days.
Among these few others I remember reading on Roberto Castro, an argentinian that was considered a truly quality opponent, but unluckily the info on SA boxing in those days is not the best....

People get surprised when see Medel´s final record, with a lot of losses....this is so misleading IMO, I mean, you can see clearly in the case of Medel that he had a career strikingly mismanaged....with his skills, he could have been a monster at the weight in any era if he had a better management, I believe.

I think guys like Johnny Jamito became forgotten too, you know.....Piero Rollo !! Leo Espinoza, he was a bit past of his best days at the time Eder beat him but he was still good...still a top 10 ranked fighter IIRC.
I´m just saying this because sometimes it looks like Eder didn´t face no one and the distance between the opposition of Eder and Harada is huge....
and it´s clear, but not that big imo...
I don´t think I can dispute Harada over Jofre though, Flea.......it´s a fine thing, I don´t agree with it, perhaps because in my criteria longevity and consistency counts more than in yours....

On Donaire... I would say Caraballo and Caldwell were better than Montiel or Darchinyan, IMO the best opponents Donaire faced so far....I like them both btw, especially Darchinyan.

[Flea Man]

Fantastic post. And yes, Caldwell was a quality fighter that somehow hasn't been mentioned so far in this thread.

I agree with you about Jofre's wins as well, another reason I rank him so highly. At featherweight past his best he beat some good fighters too, 'Irish' Frankie Crawford for example.

[PhillyPhan69]

Originally Posted by LittleRed

Poorly.

Thats because you are from Texas (IMHO the only good thing to come from Texas is Sandy Cheeks)where summer lasts 14 months out of the year!

[Vic-JofreBRASIL]

Originally Posted by Flea Man

Fantastic post. And yes, Caldwell was a quality fighter that somehow hasn't been mentioned so far in this thread.

I agree with you about Jofre's wins as well, another reason I rank him so highly. At featherweight past his best he beat some good fighters too, 'Irish' Frankie Crawford for example.

Yeah, Crawford.. I didn´t even talk about the FW fights he had.....
IMO Jose Legra is a H2H force at FW.......
In his FW days Eder faced a lot of criticism in the Brazilian Press btw, Flea. They always said that he was facing too many easy opponents at FW.
Fair enough.. but it was a tad unfair sometimes, the critic was severe when he faced Godfrey Stevens, the press said he was easing up things too much.....Stevens wasn´t bad though, you posted his fight with Saijo, he was okay...

[LittleRed]

Originally Posted by PhillyPhan69

Thats because you are from Texas (IMHO the only good thing to come from Texas is Sandy Cheeks)where summer lasts 14 months out of the year!

Its 65 degrees outside and people are in sweaters. Sweaters.

And vic Jofre night not have beaten better opposition but he beat a ton of ranked contenders. One of the better records you'll see against to 10 guys.

Of course Jofre lost.to Harada twice...

[AlFrancis]

Originally Posted by Vic-JofreBRASIL

I liked what lora and LR said.....basically is what I think too...

In my mind, consistency is something really important (when you are not ducking top fighters, obviously, I´m not talking about consistency that is earned through over-protectionism, you know what I mean)

The quality of opposition clearly belongs to Harada, nobody can say otherwise....impossible.

The problem is that, unfortunately, Jofre´s opposition became obscure... actually it was obscure even at the time, with some exceptions like Ernesto Miranda, Jose Smecca (gave Eder one of his toughest fights) and a few others relatively known (at least in South America) at those days.
Among these few others I remember reading on Roberto Castro, an argentinian that was considered a truly quality opponent, but unluckily the info on SA boxing in those days is not the best....

People get surprised when see Medel´s final record, with a lot of losses....this is so misleading IMO, I mean, you can see clearly in the case of Medel that he had a career strikingly mismanaged....with his skills, he could have been a monster at the weight in any era if he had a better management, I believe.

I think guys like Johnny Jamito became forgotten too, you know.....Piero Rollo !! Leo Espinoza, he was a bit past of his best days at the time Eder beat him but he was still good...still a top 10 ranked fighter IIRC.
I´m just saying this because sometimes it looks like Eder didn´t face no one and the distance between the opposition of Eder and Harada is huge....
and it´s clear, but not that big imo...
I don´t think I can dispute Harada over Jofre though, Flea.......it´s a fine thing, I don´t agree with it, perhaps because in my criteria longevity and consistency counts more than in yours....

On Donaire... I would say Caraballo and Caldwell were better than Montiel or Darchinyan, IMO the best opponents Donaire faced so far....I like them both btw, especially Darchinyan.

Nice post Vic.
The only thing that bugs me is this longevity thing. Harada was fighting at the top level for over 7 years and over three weights, that's not bad going. I can't dispute that Jofre was fighting title fights over a longer period but does it really matter. Jofre definitely gets it for consistency though, a real pro! Interesting hearing about Jamito, Espinoza and Rollo and Caldwell, all top fighters of their day and like you say somewhat forgotten.
I've been reading lately through the Mexican Newspaper archives on the unsung Mexican bantams. There are some great early career fight reports on there of Olivares, Castillo, Herrera, Memo Tellez, Miguel Castro, Esparza, Felipe Gonzalez, Medel, Raul Vega etc. These fellas were literally all beating each other. Great reading them, you get a picture of how good these fellas really were in there own right instead of just being names on somebody's boxrec profile.

[Vic-JofreBRASIL]

Originally Posted by AlFrancis

I've been reading lately through the Mexican Newspaper archives on the unsung Mexican bantams. There are some great early career fight reports on there of Olivares, Castillo, Herrera, Memo Tellez, Miguel Castro, Esparza, Felipe Gonzalez, Medel, Raul Vega etc. These fellas were literally all beating each other. Great reading them, you get a picture of how good these fellas really were in there own right instead of just being names on somebody's boxrec profile.

You have a link Al?

Well said about Harada btw.

[AlFrancis]

Originally Posted by Vic-JofreBRASIL

You have a link Al?

Well said about Harada btw.

It might be one you you've seen, it's got a full report on the Saldivar Jofre fight and it's all in Spanish.


[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[Vic-JofreBRASIL]

Originally Posted by AlFrancis

It might be one you you've seen, it's got a full report on the Saldivar Jofre fight and it's all in Spanish.


[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Thank you very much.

[Flea Man]

Originally Posted by Vic-JofreBRASIL

Yeah, Crawford.. I didn´t even talk about the FW fights he had.....
IMO Jose Legra is a H2H force at FW.......
In his FW days Eder faced a lot of criticism in the Brazilian Press btw, Flea. They always said that he was facing too many easy opponents at FW.
Fair enough.. but it was a tad unfair sometimes, the critic was severe when he faced Godfrey Stevens, the press said he was easing up things too much.....Stevens wasn´t bad though, you posted his fight with Saijo, he was okay...

Well said and yeah, Stevens didn't look too bad did he, he hung in there and fought well against a pretty dangerous guy (one of the more deceiving K.O%'s for sure) although admittedly I can't remember the details of the Jofre fight or where Stevens was at in his career at the time, look he wasn't brilliant but he was a regional titlist of sorts so he was at least a decent South American fighter fighter at least, of which there were many.

AlFrancis thanks again by the way And I've got an overwhelming feeling that we should start calling the 60s/early 70s 'The Mexican Murderers Row' because for the talent assembled it really was just that. Except they ended up running the show Olivares punched Rose out and every champion for the next decade was Mexican (I think....Olivares,Castillo,Olivares,Herrera,Lara...where does it go then? Anyway eventually it's Herrera,Martinez,Zarate ain't it?

There might be a non-Mexican no.1 in their somewhere. I get a bit lost when Herrera loses the title 'cause Lara seems a tad erratic (shame there's not more on him though) and Herrera gets 'beat' by Bus Station (certainly beat up) before Martinez finally turns the trick on him (shame that isn't out there, or Herrera's title defence over him ) but anyway, ends up with Zarate in the end

Man if Macias and Becerra came just a little bit later

[AlFrancis]

Originally Posted by Flea Man

Well said and yeah, Stevens didn't look too bad did he, he hung in there and fought well against a pretty dangerous guy (one of the more deceiving K.O%'s for sure) although admittedly I can't remember the details of the Jofre fight or where Stevens was at in his career at the time, look he wasn't brilliant but he was a regional titlist of sorts so he was at least a decent South American fighter fighter at least, of which there were many.

AlFrancis thanks again by the way And I've got an overwhelming feeling that we should start calling the 60s/early 70s 'The Mexican Murderers Row' because for the talent assembled it really was just that. Except they ended up running the show Olivares punched Rose out and every champion for the next decade was Mexican (I think....Olivares,Castillo,Olivares,Herrera,Lara...where does it go then? Anyway eventually it's Herrera,Martinez,Zarate ain't it?

There might be a non-Mexican no.1 in their somewhere. I get a bit lost when Herrera loses the title 'cause Lara seems a tad erratic (shame there's not more on him though) and Herrera gets 'beat' by Bus Station (certainly beat up) before Martinez finally turns the trick on him (shame that isn't out there, or Herrera's title defence over him ) but anyway, ends up with Zarate in the end

Man if Macias and Becerra came just a little bit later

When you think about it Flea there were probably literally hundreds of Mexican bantams campaigning at that time. You'd have to have something about you to fight your way out of that.

[Lester1583]

Macias

By the way, I know there's a short footage of Macias-Peacock 2 on youtube
but in case anyone wondered what happened in the Peacock rematch:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[Vic-JofreBRASIL]

I think I have the Macias vs Peacock rematch footage....: not sure, I need to check.

[Flea Man]

I've seen the one where Macias gets cut down by Peacock and it shows how talented even the B-fighters of that era, left by the side of the road by most historically, were and shows it wasn't as thin on the ground talent wise as it may seem looking at some unrecognisable Algerians, Thai's and what not that contended for the title and the fractured titles.

It was bloody good.

And yes Al', a golden era for Mexican boxing IMO and part of the greater picture in the greatest era of bantamweight history.

If you split it down the middle; Jofre to Rose/Olivares to Martinez there isn't much between 'em. Two P4P greats in the first era but as much depth in the latter.

Taken as a whole it's one of the greatest spans for a division in boxing history. Ridiculous.