Liston v Holyfield

[Manassa]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

Its always tough to compare sizes from different rule sets.

Rounds fell by 25% and so were 33% longer than today but that doesn't mean those guys would be 33% heavier.

Is there anyone who fought at he during both round limits as some sort of measuring stick to see how their weight altered?

Nothing to do with rule sets, this one

It's Liston versus Holyfield in size, as they were, and I say they were about as evenly weighted as you can get, although Liston was effortlessly (relatively) 210lbs as opposed to a pumped 210lbs like Holyfield.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by Manassa

Nothing to do with rule sets, this one

It's Liston versus Holyfield in size, as they were, and I say they were about as evenly weighted as you can get, although Liston was effortlessly (relatively) 210lbs as opposed to a pumped 210lbs like Holyfield.

Well if one is to assume that a 15 round fighter would typically weigh less than a 12 round fighter we are.

But if you just want a comparison as they were then Holy was just as heavy plus he was taller. So if anyone has an advantage in size it's him.

[Sardu]

If Holy boxes smartly he could be successful against Liston. If he reverts to his slugging self ala the first Bowe fight he's toast. My gut tells me when he gets clipped he starts to go to war. That is exactly what Liston would hope for.

Liston KO 9 Holyfield in a thrilling fight

[lufcrazy]

If Holy can brawl with Bowe I'm sure he can brawl with Liston.

[Mr Butt]

Very close fight I slightly favour Liston but not with a huge amount of certainty

[Manassa]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

Well if one is to assume that a 15 round fighter would typically weigh less than a 12 round fighter we are.

But if you just want a comparison as they were then Holy was just as heavy plus he was taller. So if anyone has an advantage in size it's him.

Weight is a component of mass. I don't believe height is on its own, not without width or breadth, which would give you volume, which without density is only mass potential. I think this means they were both the same size but Holyfield was slightly skinnier. Personally, if forced to choose, I would say Liston was bigger for the size of his skeleton; his hands, wrists, ankles and such - areas almost unaffected by muscle growth - were larger than Holyfield's.

Holyfield was big; so was Liston, but without a specified regimen to make him so:

[IMG]********i56.tinypic.com/io18ie.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]***********.inflexwetrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Evander-Holyfield.jpg[/IMG]

[Mr Butt]

Jesus Liston looks the naturally bigger man

[Manassa]

Originally Posted by Mr Butt

Jesus Liston looks the naturally bigger man

Finally, someone, thank you

[FlyingFrenchman]

Originally Posted by Theron

Are you dumb your saying Liston only has a slight edge in power to Holyfield are you special or just beyond dumb?
Cleveland Williams could hit harder than and faster hard combinations that Holyfield could.
Really push around bigger men than Liston had to i dont remember him puhing around Foreman or anybody that could compare to a young Foreman...
Liston had an 84 inch reach and would outjab Holyfield with ease
Footwork isnt so one sided Liston had great footwork
You seriously think Holyfield a blown up cruiser could get a ko/tko on Liston who had a great chin as he proved against Williams who i have to say again was a quick handed ko puncher with amazing combinations, Holys left hook cant compete with Williams speed or power in his left

I never said Holyfield pushed Foreman around. I said Holyfield was able to push around bigger and better fighters than Liston faced. Cleveland Williams best weight was about 210 Lbs... who else ya got? Williams is almost as overrated as Jerry Quarry on this forum. Dude, Williams wasn't shit!

Back to Holyfield... he was able to "man handle" the likes of Thomas, Dokes, Stewart, Douglas, Tyson, Savarese (who is a very big man), and others. All of these guys were much bigger than the common opponent of Liston. He more than held his own vs. Foreman, Holmes, Bowe x3, and Lewis x2... I doubt Liston would have done as well.

Power? Yes, I said it... I give Liston a slight edge in power. The chins Liston cracked weren't shit compared to the chins Holyfield tried to crack (sometimes Holyfield stopped them, sometimes not). Anyway, I gave Liston the nod here... what more do you want? Patterson was down more than any other HW Champ ever and was a much smaller man. Folley was a small HW as well who wasn't the hardest HW to stop. Machen managed to go the distance vs. Liston and had a few good moments as well. Who else ya got? Summerlin x2?, Marty Marshall?, Ali x2? Leotis Martin? Wepner?

84" reach? Maybe, maybe not? Even if he did... he's 2" shorter and he is slower.

One more thing... quit talking up Cleveland Williams like he was something special.

[FlyingFrenchman]

Originally Posted by Theron

Yeah exacly Foreman was 41 when he fought Holy and fought at a slow pace throwing his punches very carefully
Remember Liston sparred with a young Foreman that threw a jab or 2 and then went all out throwing every punch as a power punch i dont know about you but if Liston could deal with a young Foreman with more speed and in better shape throwing every punch as a punch that could knock you out and dealing with it, compared to an older more out of shape heavier slower Foreman who conserved his energy that fought Holyfield...
I'd say id rather fight the Foreman that fought Holyfield
If Holyfield fought the Foreman that Liston sparred with what do you see happening i dont see it going well for Holyfield, do you see Holyfield seriously standing up to him and being able to push Foreman around... And staying infront of him and being able to stick in there with him throwing those bombs i dont thinks so, i dont care how big Holyfields heart is his heart dosent affect how hard and how strong the others guy is

Liston and Foreman SPARRED!!! Do you know what sparring is? Foreman looked up to Liston and wasn't trying to hurt the legend. Foreman had just turned pro and his amateur career really wasn't that long. This was far from the best version of Foreman. The Foreman that fought Holyfield was a much better fighter and a STRONGER fighter. Yes, the old Foreman was stronger... this doesn't mean he was a better puncher or faster (he wasn't) but he was stronger in the late 80's early 90's due to lifting weights.

[FlyingFrenchman]

Originally Posted by Manassa

Weight is a component of mass. I don't believe height is on its own, not without width or breadth, which would give you volume, which without density is only mass potential. I think this means they were both the same size but Holyfield was slightly skinnier. Personally, if forced to choose, I would say Liston was bigger for the size of his skeleton; his hands, wrists, ankles and such - areas almost unaffected by muscle growth - were larger than Holyfield's.

Holyfield was big; so was Liston, but without a specified regimen to make him so:

[IMG]********i56.tinypic.com/io18ie.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]***********.inflexwetrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Evander-Holyfield.jpg[/IMG]

That's an old Holyfield in the above picture... not sure about Liston but I've seen him look a little more fit than the above picture. Anyway, these pictures don't mean shit! Both were bulky guys... Holyfield still is. Holyfield's neck is almost 20" (19 3/4") and Liston's was 18 1/2". Biceps and Chest measured almost identical but Holyfield's were more defined. Waist, wrists, fists... sure Liston's were just a little bigger... so what? The most important measurement here is the neck... Holyfield's was bigger and he was the more durable of the two IMO. Even in the above pics, you can see that Holyfield has the neck and trapezoids... which help in absorbing punches.

Liston is pretty small compared to many of the good fighters Holyfield faced BTW. Holyfield is pretty huge compared to many of the good fighters Liston faced. Like I said, Holyfield proved his worth vs. bigger and better fighters.

[Manassa]

Originally Posted by FlyingFrenchman

That's an old Holyfield in the above picture... not sure about Liston but I've seen him look a little more fit than the above picture. Anyway, these pictures don't mean shit! Both were bulky guys... Holyfield still is. Holyfield's neck is almost 20" (19 3/4") and Liston's was 18 1/2". Biceps and Chest measured almost identical but Holyfield's were more defined. Waist, wrists, fists... sure Liston's were just a little bigger... so what? The most important measurement here is the neck... Holyfield's was bigger and he was the more durable of the two IMO. Even in the above pics, you can see that Holyfield has the neck and trapezoids... which help in absorbing punches.

Liston is pretty small compared to many of the good fighters Holyfield faced BTW. Holyfield is pretty huge compared to many of the good fighters Liston faced. Like I said, Holyfield proved his worth vs. bigger and better fighters.

There was a time when I'd have picked every little piece of shit out of your post.

Nowadays it seems less effort just to label you a simpleton and move on. Hope you don't mind.

[Theron]

Originally Posted by FlyingFrenchman

Cleveland Williams best weight was about 210 Lbs... who else ya got? Williams is almost as overrated as Jerry Quarry on this forum. Dude, Williams wasn't shit!

Im not talking Williams up, ''Williams wasnt shit''... he didnt have to be he could hit like a truck and had lots of speed, your saying Holyfield could do it but Holyfield couldnt throw as combinations as hard and fast as Williams, Holyfield definatley didnt have a punch like Williams either, i dont get where Holyfield has suddenly got all this punching power from... if anybodies overrating anything its you overrating Holyfield

[FlyingFrenchman]

Originally Posted by Manassa

There was a time when I'd have picked every little piece of shit out of your post.

Nowadays it seems less effort just to label you a simpleton and move on. Hope you don't mind.

Nothing to pick apart. My point is that size isn't really a huge issue here. Similar in size but Holyfield is a bit taller. That has nothing to do with my pick.

I pick Holyfield because I think he was the better fighter overall.

Simpleton? Far from it. I'm just not blinded by nostalgia like so many others.

Liston was a great fighter but his resume was not great IMO. Machen and Folley were very good Heavyweights who were good enough to challenge for the title but not win it (this would be true in most eras, a credit to them). Machen and Folley were small Heavyweights and Holyfield would run thru them like a hot knife thru butter. Patterson was a good HW Champ, but not the most durable HW Champ we've ever seen. Liston did not look good vs. Ali. I think Holyfield would have given Ali more than a few problems.

Liston went 2-2 (2) in World Title Fights. He destroyed Liston x2 and looked like shit vs. Ali x2. He was stopped 3 times. He struggled with small HW Summerlin x2 (early in his career) and LHW Marty Marshall. He beat the crap out of the overhyped Williams x2. What else did he really do?

[FlyingFrenchman]

Originally Posted by Theron

Im not talking Williams up, ''Williams wasnt shit''... he didnt have to be he could hit like a truck and had lots of speed, your saying Holyfield could do it but Holyfield couldnt throw as combinations as hard and fast as Williams, Holyfield definatley didnt have a punch like Williams either, i dont get where Holyfield has suddenly got all this punching power from... if anybodies overrating anything its you overrating Holyfield

Who did Williams knock out that was worth a shit?