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Old 02-01-2013, 03:04 PM   #271
burt bienstock
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
Burt, you do a great disservice in denying Greb his well earned plaudits as a great light heavyweight.
luf, this thread is "greatest middleweight" and that is the thread I address...One subject at a time...Cheers...
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Old 02-01-2013, 03:08 PM   #272
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
Well that was in the LHW division back then.
But those boys were not considered as being a part of the LHW division (nor was Greb), despite some of them being a few pounds over the MW limit. They were middleweights.

Mickey Walker
Jeff Smith
George Chip
Mike O'Dowd
Jack Dillon
Tiger Flowers
Mike Gibbons
Johnny Wilson
Eddie McGoorty
Al McCoy
Bryan Downey
Allentown Joe Gans
Gus Christie
Bob Moha
Augie Ratner
Silent Martin
Leo Houck

Last edited by Surf-Bat; 02-01-2013 at 04:11 PM.
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Old 02-01-2013, 03:12 PM   #273
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Originally Posted by Surf-Bat View Post
But those boys were not considered as being a part of the LHW division (nor was Greb), despite some of them being a few pounds over the MW limit. They were middleweights.

Mickey Walker
Jeff Smith
George Chip
Mike O'Dowd
Jack Dillon
Tiger Flowers
Mike Gibbons
Johny Wilson
Edie McGoorty
Al McCoy
Bryan Downey
Allentown Joe Gans
Johnny Wilson
Augie Ratner
Silent Martin
Leo Houck
There are a few names there that could justify a top 20 all time middleweight ranking, and some could justify a top 10 slot.
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Old 02-01-2013, 03:22 PM   #274
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

Surf, when I'm back home I'll list the great victories I feel he achieved as a lhw.
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Old 02-01-2013, 03:24 PM   #275
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
luf, this thread is "greatest middleweight" and that is the thread I address...One subject at a time...Cheers...
Well then lets stay on subject and include only the victories he achieved in the mw division
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Old 02-01-2013, 04:52 PM   #276
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

Greb is so far ahead of the people being aligned against him here as a fighter, that it would almost be a pyrrhic victory if you found criteria under which they were ranked ahead of him.

You would be excluding so much of his record, that it would be like trying finding a formula under which John Major won the 1997 election!
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Old 02-01-2013, 05:01 PM   #277
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Originally Posted by Lord Tywin View Post
Except for the fact that Ted Kid was not a career lightweight and didnt identify himself as such.
He chose to fight at higher weights than lightweight not because he couldn't make 135 lbs, but for a different reason or reasons. He was a natural lightweight, basically.
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Old 02-01-2013, 05:55 PM   #278
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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He chose to fight at higher weights than lightweight not because he couldn't make 135 lbs, but for a different reason or reasons. He was a natural lightweight, basically.
Did he identify himself as a lightweight? Did begin and end his career as a lightweight? Did he actively campaign his entire career for the lightweight championship? The answer to all three of those questions is no which means you are comparing apples and oranges once again.

I keep coming back to the fact that some people want to chip away at so many of the factors that made Greb so remarkable in order to level the playing field for everyone who came afterwards when it seems to me that they broke the mold with him.

Had Greb abandoned the middleweight division and declared for all times he was a light heavyweight, then that is where we would rank him. But the fact is he didnt. Took catchweight matches between bouts of greater magnitude, just like every single other middleweight of the era, and always maintained that he could make the middleweight limit whenever called upon to do so if the championship was on the line, either as champion or challenger. He proved this in his final fight at age 32 when most fighters have far outgrown their original division. To me it seems preposterous to call him anything but a middleweight.

Go through the records of those old time fighters. Tiger Flowers, Mickey Walker, Kid Norfolk, Johnny Wilson, Jeff Smith, Bob Moha, Battling Levinsky, Al McCoy, Leo Houck, Jack Dillon, George Chip, and pretty much every body else fought significant amounts of fights, some of which were important to their legacy, above the weight class that they are associated with and above the weight class that they claimed as their own. Weight was an entirely different issue in the old days than it is today. Where does it stop?

Mickey Walker had more fights above 147 while he was fighting in that division than below. Do we stop considering him as a welterweight at that time? What about all of those other middleweights and light heavys above? Should we throw out the record books and rankings on them and re-establish a new category for fighters who fought catchweight bouts?
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Old 02-01-2013, 07:11 PM   #279
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

Catchweights apply to the limit not the division.


The only person detracting from Greb here is you. We are saying he is a great lhw as well as a great mw. You are denying this and saying he is merely a mw.

I just think you have a deep seated bias against Greb.
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:33 PM   #280
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

Greb,Monzon,Hagler
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:51 AM   #281
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Did he identify himself as a lightweight? Did begin and end his career as a lightweight? Did he actively campaign his entire career for the lightweight championship? The answer to all three of those questions is no which means you are comparing apples and oranges once again.
It's not the fighters themselves who identify themselves at certain weight, it's how the writers call them. Say, Lewis and Britton were often called lightweights, even in fights where they weighed 140-145 pounds. An earlier example would be Jack Blackburn, who was often called a lightweight, even though he only made that weight limit on one or two occasions. Sam Langford was called a lightweight early in his career, even though he started as a welterweight.
No, Lewis didn't start as a lightweight, same as Greb didn't start as a middleweight.
Being able to make weight and actually weighing below certain limit are two different things. If 90% of their fights are above the limit, it's unfair to call them a lightweight or a middleweight. It's not like Greb was out of shape and fat when regularly weighing around 165 pounds. If he had to make it every time, he may have been not as successful, considering his relentless style.

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Had Greb abandoned the middleweight division and declared for all times he was a light heavyweight, then that is where we would rank him.
Who cares what the fighter himself declare? We have the figures of actual weigh-ins for a lot of fights, so we can judge it ourselves.

Quote:
Took catchweight matches between bouts of greater magnitude,
When catchweights become a rule, and fights at actual middleweight limit a rare exception, it becomes unfair for those who actually fought at that weight limit most of the time.

Quote:
Weight was an entirely different issue in the old days than it is today.
Not when titles are on the line, or when involving the champion or top contender of certain weight class. It's not as different as you may think.

Quote:
Mickey Walker had more fights above 147 while he was fighting in that division than below. Do we stop considering him as a welterweight at that time?
When evaluating his welterweight status - we should consider only the fights where he fought as a welterweight. Everything else should go to his middleweight, l/h or P4P status. Regardless of where he identified himself. I recall seeing some old ratings where Billy Conn was mentioned among the greatest middleweights of all time.
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:36 AM   #282
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

still hagler
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Old 02-02-2013, 12:23 PM   #283
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Originally Posted by Senya13 View Post
It's not the fighters themselves who identify themselves at certain weight, it's how the writers call them. Say, Lewis and Britton were often called lightweights, even in fights where they weighed 140-145 pounds. An earlier example would be Jack Blackburn, who was often called a lightweight, even though he only made that weight limit on one or two occasions. Sam Langford was called a lightweight early in his career, even though he started as a welterweight.
No, Lewis didn't start as a lightweight, same as Greb didn't start as a middleweight.
Being able to make weight and actually weighing below certain limit are two different things. If 90% of their fights are above the limit, it's unfair to call them a lightweight or a middleweight. It's not like Greb was out of shape and fat when regularly weighing around 165 pounds. If he had to make it every time, he may have been not as successful, considering his relentless style.

Who cares what the fighter himself declare? We have the figures of actual weigh-ins for a lot of fights, so we can judge it ourselves.

When catchweights become a rule, and fights at actual middleweight limit a rare exception, it becomes unfair for those who actually fought at that weight limit most of the time.

Not when titles are on the line, or when involving the champion or top contender of certain weight class. It's not as different as you may think.

When evaluating his welterweight status - we should consider only the fights where he fought as a welterweight. Everything else should go to his middleweight, l/h or P4P status. Regardless of where he identified himself. I recall seeing some old ratings where Billy Conn was mentioned among the greatest middleweights of all time.

As I said in my previous post, which addresses every issue you just stated: Go back and look at what the actual "rule" was because most fighters fought at catchweights back then. By your standard, based on a problematic logic, most of the middleweights of the era should actually be considered light heavyweights. Most of the welterweights should be middleweights, most of the lightweights should be welterweights and so on. Back then they only had eight weight divisions which meant you had larger middleweights, and smaller middleweights.

The only people who would be considered actual middleweights by your standard are the smaller fighters of the era like Mike O'Dowd, Bryan Downey, and Mike Gibbons who were too big for middleweight but fairly small middleweights. This kind of thinking completely ignores the reality of the situation for that era and tries to place these fighters within neat little compartments based on todays standards. That doesnt work, its bad history.

No the writers dont dictate what weight class a fighter is in. Writers for years stated Greb could not make the middleweight limit, lo and behold he did, and was until his last fight. Had Greb been forced to go by what the writers dictated he would never have been a middleweight champion. His career is the best proof to refute your argument.
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Old 02-02-2013, 12:39 PM   #284
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

I'll repeat the beginning of the last paragraph.

Quote:
When evaluating his welterweight status - we should consider only the fights where he fought as a welterweight. Everything else should go to his middleweight, l/h or P4P status.
Another example would be Duran losing to De Jesus. Everyone agrees (and it is a fact) that Duran never lost a pro fight at lightweight. Even though both him and De Jesus were lightweights at the time. But not in that particular bout.
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:52 PM   #285
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

And I will repeat, if you judge every weight class from the 10s and 20s based on catch weight fights you will completely rewrite history and be laughed at by people who know better. Be my guest.
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