Did jack Johnson drew a color line himself?

[KuRuPT]

Where was the money is Johnson fighting guys he had utterly and EASILY destroyed? People act like he drew the color line when these fights were the rage of the U.S. They weren't, and nobody wanted to see it except a select few. Why would the public want to see another black fighter win the World Title? They didn't. "They" wanted to "reclaim" the title for "their" race. There was no money in a colored HW title fight.. nor were there all these promotors beating down Johnson door to make it happen. Plus, like mentioned above, Johnson had already proved there superior is convincing fashion and most times with utter ease.. If I had fought a guy 3 times or 5 times.. and won every time.. even in real life.. if the guy or friends wanted to see another fight.. I would be like why.. been there done that... Yet Johnson isn't given the same slack?

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Boilermaker

This is an excellent post, and one which cant really be disputed factually.

Just some other things to consider also,
Like Dempsey and others, Johnson rarely defended at all. In a sense you could say he lived the high life, though i am not sure many would choose his version of the high life over dempseys.

Johnson dominated the three top contenders when they actually fought. Not much more he could do. It would almost be like accusing Sonny Liston for Ducking Floyd Patterson in his comeback, had he won the title. Not much more johnson could really do.

The three guys mentioned, with hindsight were the three top contenders. I am not so sure they are the out and out standout contenders at any point in time for anything other than longevity. Certainly they were not standouts like Tyson was for Spinks, Lennox was for Briggs, Johnson for Jeffries (or even vice versa) etc.


Jim Johnson is one guy i feel is dreadfully underated and underappreciated today. This is a guy who has fought on even terms with Johnson, mcvey, Jeanette, Langford, Tate, arguably even Wills, who has never (from my recollection) been stopped by any of those guys and yet he is just considered a journeyman boxer who was nothing special and simply a battler. I dare say if he was known as Sugar Jim Johnson, bonecrusher Jim Johnson or maybe even Gunboat Jim Johnson he would have a huge following and resume today.


The Wills situation would have been interesting. Hypothetically, if Johnson had rematched and beat Willard, or even better say Dempsey, would a Wills fight be made. Wills was the second highest paid and best drawing fighter of the Dempsey era and definitely the most dangerous challenger. Presumable after beating Dempsey, Johnson could write his own price against white challengers. This would be a very interesting and telling situation, i think.

Insightful post B, which raises some interesting points.
Especially the underating of Battling Jim Johnson, his draws and wins over the black trio that were just below Jack Johnson ,and his kos of Jeff Clark, he also drew with him, and beat him by decision] and Arthur Pelkey, kos of Tate and Black Bill , wins over Tom Cowler, a stoppage win over Wills , Wills broke his wrist in the 2nd rd, and quit at the end of it.[unlike Jack Johnson who struggled for another 7 rds to get a draw with his young opponent] . Battling Jim also drew with Tony Ross, stopped Jewey Smith, beat Morris Harris.

Battling Jim was no easy mark ,especially for a 35 years old inactive overweight champion.
Going into his title challenge ,Battling Jim had won 8 of his last 10 fights 7 by ko ,and lost 2, both to Jeannette, 1 by dec, and 1 by dsq
These results indicate he was more than a journeyman.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by KuRuPT

Where was the money is Johnson fighting guys he had utterly and EASILY destroyed? People act like he drew the color line when these fights were the rage of the U.S. They weren't, and nobody wanted to see it except a select few. Why would the public want to see another black fighter win the World Title? They didn't. "They" wanted to "reclaim" the title for "their" race. There was no money in a colored HW title fight.. nor were there all these promotors beating down Johnson door to make it happen. Plus, like mentioned above, Johnson had already proved there superior is convincing fashion and most times with utter ease.. If I had fought a guy 3 times or 5 times.. and won every time.. even in real life.. if the guy or friends wanted to see another fight.. I would be like why.. been there done that... Yet Johnson isn't given the same slack?

Totally agree. If there was acceptance of a black heavyweight champion, and him defending against another black man ,thereby making it a certainty that the status quo would remain , why the hell was there a White Hope movement in the first place?

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

What a joke you are. Langford for years could be viewed as the #1 or #2 challenger for Johnson for years. In fact he often fought the same guys Johnson gave title shots to and unlike Johnson, he KO’d them convincingly.



STOP!!! McVey was a teenager in two of those matches and but 20 in the third. FACT, FACT, FACT!!! Can you say Johnson beat a not ready for prime time McVey? Just admit it and move on!. As I told you numerous times, Jeannette had a losing record when he first meet Johnson, and was not much better than 500 when they last fought. Of course Johnson beat Langford when Sam was but 156 pounds, a far cry from the terror he would become.






1 ) Read the book and learn! I dare you to re-post what they said on the fight here, and in full context. 2 ) Johnson did struggle in the match with Battling Johnson.




Fighters are full of it sometimes. Smith also said he ( Johnson ) never for forgot it. Smith for a while was a top level contender. He was white, but far from a " hope ". Hmmm....wonder why Johnson never gave Gunboat Smith a shot, even though he beat Willard and Moran BEFORE Johnson gave them a title shot. Smith wasn't small, and could fight.

Take note, you are not saying one thing I posted in the 1st reply here is untrue, rather you attack the sources, then play double standards with sources.

Which years was Langford the leading contender ?
All I'm asking is a time frame. Langford LOST to Flynn whom Johnson stopped in a title defence. Mcvey showed no interest in a 4th fight with Johnson, and if you read the reports of their last fight its no surprise. In their third and final fight McVey was coming off wins over Denver Ed Martin, 1 rd ko , Fred Russell, and Kid Carter, both by ko. Carter had drawn with Hart , flooring him, decisioned McCoy, and kod Maher in the year previously.Russell had kod Hank Griffin 2 months prior to being stopped by Mcvey.
McVey was considered a very dangerous leading contender when Johnson stopped him ,dangerous enough for a promoter to offer Jim Jeffries $20,000 to defend against him,Jeffries went a bit deaf around then. Langford was 156lbs Johnson was 185lbs both about 20 lbs below their best weights, but Langford had more experience,with over 50 fights under his belt.
On the subject of Langford's weight as late as April 1911 Langford only weighed 161lbs when he fought Mcvey.
Johnson did not fight in1911 , but for his last fight in1910, [against your sweetheart Jeffries], he scaled 208lbs,and for his first one in 1912 he weighed 212lbs, no doubt if he had fought Langford then you would be screaming about how badly he was outweighed !

Strange you never mention the collossal weight advantages Jeffries enjoyed in his major fights.

As I've told you several times I have the book here in my study I've posted verbatim the Johnson/Battling Jim report many times too, I can' t be arsed to do so again,look it up.

Smith disqualified himself from title contention in 2 ways he told an English inquirer when asked when he would be meeting Johnson, "oh Johnson will wait,and the longer he waits the better," and by getting beaten by Carpentier and destroyed by Langford in their return match. Smith's win over Willard occurred when Jess was green, something you invariably seize on when confronted with Johnson's domination of Jeannette , and McVey.
Concerning the Smith /Johnson sparring session,what should we believe? Smiths taped interview, or an A P report ,filed by some one who was not present?

You need more bullets,because none of those you have fired hit the target.

[IntentionalButt]

Titular sentence is deplorably constructed.

Capitalization, grammar, and style errors.

*Jack

*draw

*of his own? (or himself after Johnson)

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by IntentionalButt

Titular sentence is deplorably constructed.

Capitalization, grammar, and style errors.

*Jack

*draw

*of his own? (or himself after Johnson)

Well I'm glad we got that out of the way.

[IntentionalButt]

Originally Posted by mcvey

Well I'm glad we got that out of the way.

* Well,

[KO KIDD]

Would the people who ran the sport put on a fight for the heavyweight title that wasnt involving a white guy

[rantcatrat]

Originally Posted by Nonpareil

mcvey already covered most things (and did so excellently I might add), but a couple of additional points.

Jack was thirty by the time he finally won the title, and thirty-two by the time he beat Jeff to become the 'real' champion in some people's eyes. He'd been campaigning for a shot since probably the Jack Jeffries fight in 1902 and had beaten a ton of fighters, including McVey (multiple times), Jeanette (multiple times), and Langford by the time he got to Burns. For some reason the pre-title years seem to be completely ignored by Johnson haters, despite them being when he was in his physical prime and was cleaning up the division of all worthy contenders - black and white - all over the world. Once he'd finally beaten Burns and Jeff he felt no obligation to then go into a series of gruelling fights for shitty pay when he could just do theatre shows, get drunk, enjoy life and bang a load of white birds. It seems strange to criticise him for this given he was 32 after Reno and given how much he'd already accomplished, and how much hard work and how many great wins were behind him. If anyone deserved a little time to enjoy the fruits of their hard work then it was this fella.

His pre-title reign was better than his title reign. In many ways, it's no different than many contemporary fighters. The main difference is that part of the reason the money wasn't the same for defending against black heavyweights is because they were black. Johnson was willing to permit that practice to continue while making money. I think that's one reason why there is some controversy. However, I'm still a student of the boxing game, so I don't claim to know much.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by rantcatrat

His pre-title reign was better than his title reign. In many ways, it's no different than many contemporary fighters. The main difference is that part of the reason the money wasn't the same for defending against black heavyweights is because they were black. Johnson was willing to permit that practice to continue while making money. I think that's one reason why there is some controversy. However, I'm still a student of the boxing game, so I don't claim to know much.

I've been following boxing for half a century, and I learn something new most days,but that's probably because I didn't know anything in the first place.

[Theron]

Originally Posted by janitor

The short answer is no.

He simply drew the Langford line and the money line.

I like that sums it up the Langford line. Unfortunatley for Langford pretty much everybody else had a Langford line as well

[Nightcrawler]

were the TOP contenders black?
did he avoid them?

if the answers are yes, then he may not have drawn the colour line. but he may well have avoided the best fighters (who happened to be black)

i don't think mendonza is wrong but may come on a little strong. i don't care how high johnson is regarded: his ranking is reflected by his dominance pre-title. but that doesn't forgive him avoiding the best contenders (if he did). his title reign should be criticized and analyzed same as anyone else

[Bummy Davis]

I think being black that Johnson would give other black opponents the chance to make a few bucks and he had some solid black contenders but did not offer the opportunity, Johnson could have opened the flood gates instead of closing many

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Bummy Davis

I think being black that Johnson would give other black opponents the chance to make a few bucks and he had some solid black contenders but did not offer the opportunity, Johnson could have opened the flood gates instead of closing many

What did Johnson owe Langford and Jeannette ? Both hated him and picked whitemen such as Jeffries to beat him,how much racial solidarity did they show? Johnson signed to fight Jeannette three times but the authorities vetoed the fight on 2 occasions ,on the other ,the money[$30,000,] was not there. This can be verified,I found the reports.

Johnson agreed to fight Langford but again the $$$ was not there.
No US promoter would put on an all black heavyweight title fight, whites would not buy tickets to see it, and blacks did not have the $$$ to do so.
Attempts were made for Johnson to defend against Langford in London but the purse was a miserly £3000, so Johnson fought Flynn for $30,000 in the US.
Whose fault is that?

[janitor]

There were big money offers for Johnson to fight Langford and McVea, but they came from Australia and Russia.

Johnson’s arrest and trial might have nixed these potential matches.

The worst you could say about Johnson, would be that he was half the problem.