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Old 02-01-2013, 06:07 PM   #31
mcvey
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Default Re: Did jack Johnson drew a color line himself?

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There were big money offers for Johnson to fight Langford and McVea, but they came from Australia and Russia.

Johnsonís arrest and trial might have nixed these potential matches.

The worst you could say about Johnson, would be that he was half the problem.
Langford and McVey weren't fighting for big money in Australia.

Can you show concrete offers of big purse offers for these fights ? Johnson received $5000 for challenging Burns.

I don't take seriously talk of promoting heavyweight title fights in early 1900's Russia.

Johnson was offered $30,000 to fight Langford in Paris, but that was for both of them,with Johnson to receive 60% and no profits from the movie rights.
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Old 02-01-2013, 06:35 PM   #32
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Default Re: Did jack Johnson drew a color line himself?

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Langford and McVey weren't fighting for big money in Australia.

Can you show concrete offers of big purse offers for these fights ? Johnson received $5000 for challenging Burns.
Yes, 30 000 would absolutely have gone down in Australia, if things had held together north of the equator!

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I don't take seriously talk of promoting heavyweight title fights in early 1900's Russia.
Perhaps that is why big money was on offer, to make it happen in Russia?
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Old 02-01-2013, 08:30 PM   #33
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Default Re: Did jack Johnson drew a color line himself?

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What did Johnson owe Langford and Jeannette ? Both hated him and picked whitemen such as Jeffries to beat him,how much racial solidarity did they show? Johnson signed to fight Jeannette three times but the authorities vetoed the fight on 2 occasions ,on the other ,the money[$30,000,] was not there. This can be verified,I found the reports.

Johnson agreed to fight Langford but again the $$$ was not there.
No US promoter would put on an all black heavyweight title fight, whites would not buy tickets to see it, and blacks did not have the $$$ to do so.
Attempts were made for Johnson to defend against Langford in London but the purse was a miserly £3000, so Johnson fought Flynn for $30,000 in the US.
Whose fault is that?
The black money for Langford was not there vs Dempsey either and the whites would pay for him to fight anyone so was Langford his best choice. This is something that Johnson can be forgiven for but not Dempsey because he was white, funny but I see Holmes being forgiven for his avoidance's and Johnson for his (possibly for good reason) but for Jack Dempsey they pick hairs a double standard on ESB
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:13 AM   #34
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Default Re: Did jack Johnson drew a color line himself?

[quote=janitor;14687927]
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Yes, 30 000 would absolutely have gone down in Australia, if things had held together north of the equator!



Perhaps that is why big money was on offer, to make it happen in Russia?
I read that McIntosh pulled the plug on any prospect of promoting Johnson's title fights in Aussie after Johnson got in deep shit with the US Government.
Who would have promoted a heavyweight title fight in Russia, between 1908 and 1915?
It had no boxing background , or fan base ,the country was in chaos for some of that time. I don't buy it for a second.

Johnson was in Moscow in 1914 why didn't a title fight materialise then?
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:47 AM   #35
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I read that McIntosh pulled the plug on any prospect of promoting Johnson's title fights in Aussie after Johnson got in deep shit with the US Government.
You read correctly, but McIntosh was banding the offer about for quite a while, and negotiations went backwards and forwards. Its possible that Johynson was trying to price himself out. The episode is covered in detail Clay Moyles book about Sam Langford

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Who would have promoted a heavyweight title fight in Russia, between 1908 and 1915? It had no boxing background , or fan base ,the country was in chaos for some of that time. I don't buy it for a second.

Johnson was in Moscow in 1914 why didn't a title fight materialise then?
The offer from Russia was $30 000 for a fight with Sam McVea. I will have to look up who made the offer. It is not unknown for countries with no boxing background to make big money offeres to promote major fights e.g Rumble in the Jungle, so it is certainly possible that there was real money behind it.
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Old 02-02-2013, 07:33 AM   #36
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Default Re: Did jack Johnson drew a color line himself?

[quote=janitor;14690291][quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post

You read correctly, but McIntosh was banding the offer about for quite a while, and negotiations went backwards and forwards. Its possible that Johynson was trying to price himself out. The episode is covered in detail Clay Moyles book about Sam Langford



The offer from Russia was $30 000 for a fight with Sam McVea. I will have to look up who made the offer. It is not unknown for countries with no boxing background to make big money offeres to promote major fights e.g Rumble in the Jungle, so it is certainly possible that there was real money behind it.
McIntosh did not even put up the money for the Burns Johnson fight, he was bankrolled by others."Huge Deal " made a lot of wild offers concerning prize fights , if you look at his record of actual promotions ,that happened and compare it to all those he trumpeted ,and hyped you will find a marked disparity. I've asked you for concrete evidence, ie names of promoters ,and the amounts on offer , you haven't responded , just repeated vague allusions,I'll ask again.
Publicity talk is one thing, action another.


ps Why would Johnson sail all the way to Australia to fight Langford for $30,000 when he could get that for fighting Jim Flynn at home?
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Old 02-02-2013, 04:44 PM   #37
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Default Re: Did jack Johnson drew a color line himself?

[quote=mcvey;14690528][quote=janitor;14690291]
Quote:

McIntosh did not even put up the money for the Burns Johnson fight, he was bankrolled by others."Huge Deal " made a lot of wild offers concerning prize fights , if you look at his record of actual promotions ,that happened and compare it to all those he trumpeted ,and hyped you will find a marked disparity. I've asked you for concrete evidence, ie names of promoters ,and the amounts on offer , you haven't responded , just repeated vague allusions,I'll ask again.
Publicity talk is one thing, action another.


ps Why would Johnson sail all the way to Australia to fight Langford for $30,000 when he could get that for fighting Jim Flynn at home?
Johnson was quoted in the Chicago Daily News October 17 1912, as saying that he had signed a deal with McIntosh to fight Sam Langford on boxing day in Sydney, then Sam McVea at a later date yet to be announced, for $55 000. Another source said that Johnson was offered $50 000 for these fights. In any event, it seems that a contract was signed, but the offer was later withdrawn due to Johnson’s legal troubles.

The offer for the fight with McVea in Russia was made by a promoter called Richard Klegin, who took Sam McVea to Paris. The timing of both of these offers was bad, given that they coincided with Johnson’s legal troubles. My personal take is that Johnson was planning to retire around 1912, and wanted to cash out with a series of big money fights against Langford, McVea, Flynn and McCarthy. Ironically, his arrest and trial probably prolonged his spell as champion!
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Old 02-03-2013, 03:38 AM   #38
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Default Re: Did jack Johnson drew a color line himself?

[quote=janitor;14692745][quote=mcvey;14690528]
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Johnson was quoted in the Chicago Daily News October 17 1912, as saying that he had signed a deal with McIntosh to fight Sam Langford on boxing day in Sydney, then Sam McVea at a later date yet to be announced, for $55 000. Another source said that Johnson was offered $50 000 for these fights. In any event, it seems that a contract was signed, but the offer was later withdrawn due to Johnsonís legal troubles.

The offer for the fight with McVea in Russia was made by a promoter called Richard Klegin, who took Sam McVea to Paris. The timing of both of these offers was bad, given that they coincided with Johnsonís legal troubles. My personal take is that Johnson was planning to retire around 1912, and wanted to cash out with a series of big money fights against Langford, McVea, Flynn and McCarthy. Ironically, his arrest and trial probably prolonged his spell as champion!
Seems like newspaper talk, to me , but if it was kosher and then withdrawn. it is no ones fault the fights did not take place.

When Tommy Burns promoted Pelkey against McCarty.Johnson cabled him he was prepared to defend against McCarty in Canada , Burns turned the offer down . That is concrete because Burns took a page out in the paper giving his reason for refusing to promote the fight as Johnson was ,"not an upright suitable champion" or some silly words to that effect.
Fact is he was promoting and managing Pelkey and knew he had no chance with Johnson.Poor McCarty never got his chance either, because he collapsed and died in the opening round
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Old 02-03-2013, 05:32 AM   #39
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Default Re: Did jack Johnson drew a color line himself?

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[quote=mcvey;14695308]
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Seems like newspaper talk, to me , but if it was kosher and then withdrawn. it is no ones fault the fights did not take place.
The contracts were definitely inked for Johnson to fight Langford and McVea in Australia. There are too many different newspaper accounts refferencing it for them not to have been. McIntosh seems to have got cold feet after Johnsons legal troubles.

Quote:
When Tommy Burns promoted Pelkey against McCarty.Johnson cabled him he was prepared to defend against McCarty in Canada , Burns turned the offer down . That is concrete because Burns took a page out in the paper giving his reason for refusing to promote the fight as Johnson was ,"not an upright suitable champion" or some silly words to that effect.
Fact is he was promoting and managing Pelkey and knew he had no chance with Johnson.Poor McCarty never got his chance either, because he collapsed and died in the opening round
Again, there is some evidence that Johnson McCarthy was more than a hypothetic when Johnsons legal troubles began. Contracts had been inked for a third Johnson Flynn fight as well.
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Old 02-04-2013, 05:27 PM   #40
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Default Re: Did jack Johnson drew a color line himself?

McVey,

1 ) In 1914 the NSC offered Johnson £6000, which was approximately $30,000, to face Langford. Johnson called the offer "ridiculous" and rejected it. (Townsville Daily Bulletin, 17th Feb 1914)

2 )French promoter Theodore Vienne says he offered Johnson $25,000 and then $30,000 to meet Langford in Paris. Johnson turned him down. Johnson's continual refusal to meet the best challengers led to the French Boxing Federation stripping him of the title (Winnipeg Tribune, 27th Dec 1913)

3 ) McIntosh made a series of offers to Johnson: $60,000 to fight Langford, McVey and Jeannette in Australia (NYT 9 Dec 1912); $30,000 for an unnamed opponent that the author presumes to be Langford (NYT 26th June 1912); $40,000 for Langford and McVey with $5000 expenses and a $10,000 forfeit (NYT 9th August 1912). Then there was a reported $100,000 to fight Langford and Jeannette in Australia and Flynn in Paris (NYT Oct 12 1912)

And so on and so on. You can find tons of similar offers stretching from soon after Johnson beat Burns right up to his loss to Willard. The interest was there, the money was there and Johnson still wouldn't accept. You may dismiss all that as hate and remain bigoted and agenda driven on the subject.

PS: This post is also directed at those who want and see sources. I provided three above. There are more...
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Old 02-04-2013, 05:51 PM   #41
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Default Re: Did jack Johnson drew a color line himself?

So if he signed to fight both Mcvea and Langford... but got in trouble with the Mann act... how did he draw the color line?
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:03 AM   #42
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Default Re: Did jack Johnson drew a color line himself?

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McVey,

1 ) In 1914 the NSC offered Johnson £6000, which was approximately $30,000, to face Langford. Johnson called the offer "ridiculous" and rejected it. (Townsville Daily Bulletin, 17th Feb 1914)

2 )French promoter Theodore Vienne says he offered Johnson $25,000 and then $30,000 to meet Langford in Paris. Johnson turned him down. Johnson's continual refusal to meet the best challengers led to the French Boxing Federation stripping him of the title (Winnipeg Tribune, 27th Dec 1913)

3 ) McIntosh made a series of offers to Johnson: $60,000 to fight Langford, McVey and Jeannette in Australia (NYT 9 Dec 1912); $30,000 for an unnamed opponent that the author presumes to be Langford (NYT 26th June 1912); $40,000 for Langford and McVey with $5000 expenses and a $10,000 forfeit (NYT 9th August 1912). Then there was a reported $100,000 to fight Langford and Jeannette in Australia and Flynn in Paris (NYT Oct 12 1912)

And so on and so on. You can find tons of similar offers stretching from soon after Johnson beat Burns right up to his loss to Willard. The interest was there, the money was there and Johnson still wouldn't accept. You may dismiss all that as hate and remain bigoted and agenda driven on the subject.

PS: This post is also directed at those who want and see sources. I provided three above. There are more...
Peggy Bettinson the matchmaker and promoter as well as the erstwhile General Secretary of the NSC offered Johnson $5000 to fight Langford with Johnson to pay his own expenses.

This is Johnson's written reply.

" I don't see that the National Sporting Club has the right to dictate to me as to how much I shall receive for my appearance ,and boxing ability.If they don't want to give my price,[ which is thirty thousand dollars,] win , lose, or draw, they can call things off.I am a boxing man and can now get my price,and I dont care what the public thinks."


Here is a cable dated Feb 9th 1914 ,presented ,and published in the newspaper The Argus. The National Sporting Club offers Jack Johnson £3000 to defend his title against Sam Langford in London , the purse to be split 60/40.No film rights to either boxer .
Johnson was getting ready to defend against Moran ,he stated in print he would fight Langford for £6000. .
.
END OF ARGUMENT

Stop with the bullshit.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Last edited by mcvey; 02-07-2013 at 04:16 PM.
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Old 02-06-2013, 06:42 AM   #43
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Default Re: Did jack Johnson drew a color line himself?

Mcvey,

Take my advice for once and open your eyes and ears. It obvious that Johnson Did not take several offers to fight the best.
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Old 02-06-2013, 07:31 AM   #44
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Mcvey,

Take my advice for once and open your eyes and ears. It obvious that Johnson Did not take several offers to fight the best.
I've provided a primary source that blows your mythical £6000 from the NSC clear out of the water , you ,as usual provided Jack shit.

Why don't you do the decent thing, cut your ****ing throat.
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