What was the bigger decrease in Skill that you notice in Tyson post-prison?

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

Abraham and Clottey demonstrate the weakness: It's hiding behind long, big arms and large, puffy gloves. It's a fortress. Smart fighters, if they can, will make sure you stay behind it and just outwork you. Manny Pacquiao decided very early on against Clottey he wasn't going to land many punches, so he just got off first and moved to his right, and it worked with laughable ease.

Winky Wright did it correctly. He kept the guard high, but he kept his lead foot active in firefights, inching forward. He wasn't depending on it; In the Taylor fight, for example, watch how he always ends up in Taylor's chest when Taylor starts throwing with both hands. Wright also jabbed and worked constantly; Very high workrate. He used his high guard for protection, and it never interfered with his own high volume jab and peck attack, AND he used it as a bit of a battering ram to close the distance with bigger guys and to pressure smaller guys by forcing them onto the back foot. Either way, in either scenario, the attacker loses leverage, and thus, speed and power. Totally valid. Winky Wright made it work, Abraham and Clottey can't against a certain calibre of fighter.

I think Clottey folded against Pacquaio though to be honest. I think he could of won with the right attitude.

I think you touch on something that's very important and underrated to defence and offense, moving forward, and more specifically moving forward with high gloves. It takes away the opponents options and puts him under pressure and if he can't punch short and you can spoil you're pretty safe

If you fancy a peekaboo chess match Winky-Quartey is fun for the fans of technicians, Quartey supposedly taught Winky this style so I've heard

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

Oh, certainly, but any style that invokes a ton of movement is draining. Tyson's style was also punishing.

And I simply disagree. I'll collect some videos to illustrate my point when I have some time. Might as well figure out how to use the embedding feature.

Sounds good, I'll check back tomorrow, it's 1:30am here and I have to get my businesses delivery orders out for midday tomorrow/today, so it's hitting the hay for me mate

[Manassa]

Originally Posted by man

Tyson what was the bigger skill decrease and I notice

Raping was better plus books

[Saintpat]

No real discernable physical differences. They had more to do with his mental state:

1) Never in prime condition again -- lack of willingness to sacrifice and train the way an elite heavyweight has to train

2) This really started before prison but really began to show after: stubborness in refusing to hire a trainer he respected, someone who he would yield his will to and allow himself to be trained into proper shape, to utilize proper defense, to formulate a fight plan that depended on more than intimidation.

In short, Tyson came out of prison without the fire that would make him do whatever it took to be the best in the world, even though he probably still had the skills. Way too many idiotic decisions about who he allowed into his inner circle and about who would run his camp and how it would be run.

[zadfrak]

Tyson's balance and reflexes weren't the same. That makes things like accuracy a factor. Like Magna says, that style is a 100% type of style. If a guy is only at 90%, it fails. At 80%, it fails miserably. It's a tightrope act and the guys are taught that style for so long that when they deteriorate just a little, everything just gets magnified.

But an opponent has to have the tools at their disposal to deal with it. No tools translates to a brutal loss. But Mike sure did become a lot easier to nullify. Lots of times in boxing that's all an opponent has to do anyway--the ability to nullify. So many people think 1 fighter has to have a distinct advantage and that just isn't the case.

[FlyingFrenchman]

To be honest, after he knocked the ring rust off, he looked great early in his comeback. He still had speed, power, footwork, and head movement. As his comeback went on he was hot and cold with his training... eventually his heart wasn't in it anymore.

I think he was ready for a great form vs. Golota but Golota didn't give him one. Tyson looked good IMO but the fight was changed to a NC due to a positive teste for weed.

[PetethePrince]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

Give me the more traditional bob and weave any day. It works, and has worked, for thousands of fighters across a century. The D'Amato peek-a-boo has worked for like three guys. Easy to see which is superior, and you nailed early in your post why.

Qawi was extremely difficult to hit. Mike Tyson and Floyd Patterson weren't. They were more of an offensive threat, but I'd personally be more intimidated fighting a prime Qawi; I'd REALLY have to use my jab, my feet, and set up my spots and my turns, or I'd be getting hit too much. Patterson and Tyson probably overwhelm me with speed and firepower, but I'd be landing back, and I hit like a howitzer, so at the very least, I'd be in with a prayer. I think it'd be straight difficult to fight Qawi and Frazier, who wouldn't be as apt to give me room(Tyson cared more about HIMSELF having room to throw than limiting an opponent. He just got tied up whenever he drifted to close to somebody), and would present off-rhythm, off line, varied dodges, which are harder to time. Both are vulnerable to the uppercut, but even still, gimme the bob, because it reacts off-rhythm. D'Amato Peekaboo is herky jerky, and got it's fighters hit with tons of uppercuts anyway.

Yes, I consider Qawi and Frazier better defensive fighters than Mike Tyson. That don't have his offensive firepower, though. Mike didn't fight dumb; He knew EXACTLY what made him successful, and he shoved it down your throat. When you aren't a high calibre athlete/fighter, that much ammunition is just gonna make you freeze and pray for deliverance.

That, too me, is the most UNDERRATED part of D'Amato's training. Watch Tyson and Patterson throw hooks. It's immaculate. The form is literally perfect. The combinations? Scintillating, fully leveraged, just gorgeous. Those guys just aren't worrying much about defense while doing it, for obvious reasons.

You really get that sense with Torres in regards to the herky-jerky nature of the style. Sometimes it's easy to forget that when you see a guy as big, strong, and fluid as Tyson in a highlight video. He's just so offensively explosive; Tyson is very aesthetically pleasing to watch but I think Patterson and him are more unique in their gifts. The D'amato style is a lot more herky jerky. Insert many of a fighters & or amateurs and it looks hardly as fluid as Tyson & Patterson make it seems (I particularly remember a Russian amateur in the London Olympics that fought Tyson-esque. He was very herky jerky and Teddy Atlas commented on how he slipped side to side too far in his range of motion).

I've always genuinely believed Tyson was slightly superior in defense than Frazier. Honestly, you make a great case though. Tyson's offensive ammunition, counter-punching ability, and even durability perhaps can often make you overestimate his defensive capabilities (Or overlooked his vulnerabilities). And when he does slip punches he looks so damn good in doing so. The other times he's just blasting guys out early. But Douglas & Ruddock really put a number on him. I mean a shellacking. It's entirely too difficult to accept Tyson being 50% of himself when he looked less stellar offensively than anything else. I'm not entirely sure how to chalk it all up. This would definitely be an interesting thread/topic to discuss as I'm almost sure your opinion is in the minority on this one.

Your last paragraph really hits the nail on the head. These guys are just fucking wonderful to watch. Technically perfect offensive machines. Very crowd-pleasing style.

[PetethePrince]

Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki

Abraham and Clottey demonstrate the weakness: It's hiding behind long, big arms and large, puffy gloves. It's a fortress. Smart fighters, if they can, will make sure you stay behind it and just outwork you. Manny Pacquiao decided very early on against Clottey he wasn't going to land many punches, so he just got off first and moved to his right, and it worked with laughable ease.

Winky Wright did it correctly. He kept the guard high, but he kept his lead foot active in firefights, inching forward. He wasn't depending on it; In the Taylor fight, for example, watch how he always ends up in Taylor's chest when Taylor starts throwing with both hands. Wright also jabbed and worked constantly; Very high workrate. He used his high guard for protection, and it never interfered with his own high volume jab and peck attack, AND he used it as a bit of a battering ram to close the distance with bigger guys and to pressure smaller guys by forcing them onto the back foot. Either way, in either scenario, the attacker loses leverage, and thus, speed and power. Totally valid. Winky Wright made it work, Abraham and Clottey can't against a certain calibre of fighter.

That's right, Wright used it differently. Wright had a high work-rate. Clottey & Abraham I suspect had stamina deficiencies that kept them more shelled up for all that time. Wide disparity in skill/ability working against them too in comparison to Winky, obviously. Always thought Abraham should've been taught some sort of form of the crouch. It can't compensate for a stamina vulnerability since it's taxing but it will put him better position to use his firepower and not be so predictable.

*Edit*

Also interested in seeing that comparison. One thing is for sure, when Tyson made you miss he made it known. Not just for his opponent for those watching. I don't just mean he made you miss and pay but I mean he made you miss by a large margin at times. A bob & weave, or Frazier's style was more subtle and not as great of a range to slip. Partially because it was more conducive for closing the gap and in-fighting rather than immediately unleashing back heavy leather. So Frazier could parry, glove-block, or dip a little and barely just barely have you miss. Maybe you grazed him or made contact more but perhaps Tyson got hit more cleanly, more often. I honestly was of the opinion that Tyson was better defensively so I'm eagerly awaiting some video example comparisons (No pressure). By the way, I'm pretty sure that all you have to do to embed youtube video is copy and paste the url at the top and just post the link. The site does all the work for you. That's how I've always done it... preview the post beforehand to make sure.