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Old 02-02-2013, 01:15 PM   #286
burt bienstock
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Originally Posted by Lord Tywin View Post
As I said in my previous post, which addresses every issue you just stated: Go back and look at what the actual "rule" was because most fighters fought at catchweights back then. By your standard, based on a problematic logic, most of the middleweights of the era should actually be considered light heavyweights. Most of the welterweights should be middleweights, most of the lightweights should be welterweights and so on. Back then they only had eight weight divisions which meant you had larger middleweights, and smaller middleweights.

The only people who would be considered actual middleweights by your standard are the smaller fighters of the era like Mike O'Dowd, Bryan Downey, and Mike Gibbons who were too big for middleweight but fairly small middleweights. This kind of thinking completely ignores the reality of the situation for that era and tries to place these fighters within neat little compartments based on todays standards. That doesnt work, its bad history.

No the writers dont dictate what weight class a fighter is in. Writers for years stated Greb could not make the middleweight limit, lo and behold he did, and was until his last fight. Had Greb been forced to go by what the writers dictated he would never have been a middleweight champion. His career is the best proof to refute your argument.
LT, correct ! Since this thread started, everything I have read for the past
50 years or so, led me to BELIEVE that some fighter by the name of Harry Greb was a MIDDLEWEIGHT champion of the 1920s !!! Lo and behold
some posters on a website called ESB have proven I was wrong in my assertion...They to strengthen their choice that a Carlos Monzon or Marvin Hagler were BETTER middleweights than Harry Greb simply because
Harry Greb for many years beat the very best middleweights of his times,
some HOFamers, but to keep BUSY and put money on the table,challenged and whipped some great lightheavyweight Hall of Famers, whilst fighting over the 160 pound weight class...But everytime Greb at 5ft8" had to defend his MW crown, he trained to get under the 160 pound weight and never failed to make the weight. NEVER. In fact in his great victory over Mickey Walker Greb weighed in at 158 pounds,and in his last 2 fights with Tiger Flowers ,Greb came in under 160 after 298 bouts....He was always known as a great MW champion who had the guts, the sheer ability, to
tackle great lightheavyweight fighters and heavyweight fighters,through all his career,though weighing above 160 because he wanted to enjoy life by not having to make weight every week or so in his hectic career...EVERY
MIDDLEWEIGHT today I'm sure walks around 165-70 pounds between fights
and usually can eat what they want after the MW bout cause they fight every 6 months, but Greb fought almost every week and fighting at his
walking around weight made the rigors of training and fighting more tolerable....Hence Greb in his non MW title fights fought at over 160 lbs.
Would he beat a Carlos monzon or Marvin Hagler in a H2H match ?
I think so strongly because both Monzon and Hagler never took on bigger
lightheavyweights or heavyweights at all. They Knew their limitations,
but truly Harry Greb HAD no limitations as his unique boxing mix of tremendous handspeed, footspeed, iron chin and sheer toughness, always carried him through a 300 bout career, in which he was NEVER stopped in his last 290 fights... Greb was always considered a middleweight by
the boxing fraternity,who had the ability to tackle men 10-35 pounds heavier than he, but when his title was at stake ALWAYS made 160 lbs. Cheers.
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:16 PM   #287
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

It's fairly straight forward.

When considering what one achieved in the division in question you look at the fights one had in the division in question.
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:27 PM   #288
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

In the top ten rankings we done for the site greb ranked 2nd at middleweight and 7th in the light-heavyweight division could it be that we ranked greb to low in the light-heavies perhaps his résumé suggests he should be higher
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:30 PM   #289
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

Well I certainly disagree with twynin and burt. I believe Greb is a great light heavyweight as well as a great middleweight.

I believe they completely underestimate his worth as a light heavyweight. It's a shame really to see such greatness unappreciated.
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Old 02-02-2013, 02:20 PM   #290
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

People who know better? Hah! I laugh at IBRO myself for including Jack Blackburn in lightweight division ratings.
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Old 02-02-2013, 11:59 PM   #291
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

You laugh at IBRO?

The sources you are able to cobble together in Russia must be far better than anything we have here in the USA, you know, where these events actually took place and we can actually look at all of the sources.
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Old 02-03-2013, 12:42 AM   #292
burt bienstock
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
Well I certainly disagree with twynin and burt. I believe Greb is a great light heavyweight as well as a great middleweight.

I believe they completely underestimate his worth as a light heavyweight. It's a shame really to see such greatness unappreciated.
luf, I truly want to understand your reasoning on why you have Monzon or Hagler OVER Harry Greb in a MW showdown ? On what basis do you think a Monzon or Hagler were "better" middleweights than a Greb who beat all the middleweights of his time and some were HOFamers in a tough era, and STILL had the powerful talents to go beyond 160 and amazingly whip great tough 175 pounders as Tunney, Loughran, Gibbons, Dillon, Rosenbloom, Kid Norfolk, spotting these great talents 10-15 pounds and some tough heavyweights. ? Being that you and I never saw the great Greb
in action ,I after serious thought , conclude that would a Monzon or Hagler
[or anyone for that matter] fight the same roster that Harry Greb did in his THREE HUNDRED fight career would Carlos or Marvin be HALF of successful
as Greb did in his amazing career ? And if you will, on what basis can you say Monzon or Hagler were better than Harry Greb who when he wanted to
was always UNDER 160 pounds til his last 2 bouts, with Tiger Flowers,
though, old and creaky and worn down to a frazzle from 300 bouts and several near fatal auto accidents, and might I add HALF BLIND to boot !.
So luf on what basis can you say Hagler were better middleweights than the Iron City Express ? With all respect and curiousity .
And remember both Monzon and Hagler were "bigger" men than Greb was...
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Old 02-03-2013, 02:34 AM   #293
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
luf, I truly want to understand your reasoning on why you have Monzon or Hagler OVER Harry Greb in a MW showdown ? On what basis do you think a Monzon or Hagler were "better" middleweights than a Greb who beat all the middleweights of his time and some were HOFamers in a tough era, and STILL had the powerful talents to go beyond 160 and amazingly whip great tough 175 pounders as Tunney, Loughran, Gibbons, Dillon, Rosenbloom, Kid Norfolk, spotting these great talents 10-15 pounds and some tough heavyweights. ? Being that you and I never saw the great Greb
in action ,I after serious thought , conclude that would a Monzon or Hagler
[or anyone for that matter] fight the same roster that Harry Greb did in his THREE HUNDRED fight career would Carlos or Marvin be HALF of successful
as Greb did in his amazing career ? And if you will, on what basis can you say Monzon or Hagler were better than Harry Greb who when he wanted to
was always UNDER 160 pounds til his last 2 bouts, with Tiger Flowers,
though, old and creaky and worn down to a frazzle from 300 bouts and several near fatal auto accidents, and might I add HALF BLIND to boot !.
So luf on what basis can you say Hagler were better middleweights than the Iron City Express ? With all respect and curiousity .
And remember both Monzon and Hagler were "bigger" men than Greb was...
I dont know who was better since I've never seen Greb in action.

With regards to greater, however resume is only half the argument for me. The other half is achievement and Monzon and Hagler achieved a level of dominance as mw champion that none others have done before or since.

I then give the benefit of seeing them on film hence putting them a whisker above Harry in this one division.

As you say he beat great light heavyweights and as such I also rate him highly as a light heavyweight.
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Old 02-03-2013, 04:14 AM   #294
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

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You laugh at IBRO?

The sources you are able to cobble together in Russia must be far better than anything we have here in the USA, you know, where these events actually took place and we can actually look at all of the sources.
I'm pretty certain that I know more about Joe Gans' and Jack Blackburn's (before imprisonment) boxing careers than anybody at IBRO. Jack Blackburn wasn't a lightweight, regardless that he was called such by contemporary writers. All bouts where his weight was reported except one or two show him above the lightweight limit. And when he actually managed to make a reported 132 pounds, he was too weak to fight properly.
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Old 02-03-2013, 06:28 AM   #295
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Default Re: Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

This is how I see Greb.

HW - G Smith, Brennan (x4), Meehan (x2), Renault (x2), Weinert, H Smith.

LHW (41 months as top man) - Levinsky (x3), Dillon, Tunney, Miske (x2), Houck (x2), T Gibbons (x2), M Gibbons, Loughran (x3), J Smith, Rosenbloom, - Tunney (Dx2)*, Loughran (Dx2)*, Flowers (D), Z Kid (D) - Gibbons (L), Tunney (Lx2) .

MW (36 months as top man) - Dillon, Walker, Slattery, J Smith, Chip (x2), Moha, Wilson (x2), Brennan (x3), McCoy, Downey, Moore, - Flowers (D)* - Flowers (L) O'Dowd (L).

Seriously I don't even think there's a decent argument that he has a better MW ledger than a LHW one. He holds victories over 7 guys I list in my top 20, 7!
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