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Old 02-05-2013, 02:53 PM   #226
Makingweight
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Some really interesting reading.

To add about fighters that have been promised large purses but after deductions walked away with very little worth looking up Tim Witherspoon v Frank Bruno.

He signed a contract for a 1$m dollar purse.....he cleared barely 60k once management fees training expenses & of course cuts for Don & Carl King.

He complained & became frozen out of the heavyweight scene because he had signed his sporting life away.Dempsey 100% correct before you sign anything take INDEPENDENT advice.

There is a saying over here if it seems to good to be true it often is.
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Old 02-05-2013, 05:46 PM   #227
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Some really interesting reading.

To add about fighters that have been promised large purses but after deductions walked away with very little worth looking up Tim Witherspoon v Frank Bruno.

He signed a contract for a 1$m dollar purse.....he cleared barely 60k once management fees training expenses & of course cuts for Don & Carl King.

He complained & became frozen out of the heavyweight scene because he had signed his sporting life away.Dempsey 100% correct before you sign anything take INDEPENDENT advice.

There is a saying over here if it seems to good to be true it often is.
Very true, I got a call from Carl King who wanted to work with me, he told me he would get me a deal with DKP, for a nice slice of the pie(%) I forget how much. Didn't even consider it.
I know a big name promoter/trainer, who used to invite his fighters to eat, he would pay for it, but at the end of the training camp, each fighter got a bill for the total amount of the bill rather then what they ordered. Yes sir fun and games in boxing.
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Old 02-06-2013, 06:20 AM   #228
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Dempsey read the article about John Duddy i heard he had a bad deal didn't realise the extent of it.I have friends in New York & he at least came out the other end & has got on with his life where it's easy to get bitter when you find out you have been treated so badly.

He has at least got into acting friend of mine over your side of the pond knows him he also helps run a bar both of which he enjoys.Next time i speak to him he may be able to tell me a bit more about what went on which i will post if it adds anything to the story.

My favourite fighter was Hagler he also had brothers looking after him & at times with better links his career could of been pushed on quicker imo.The difference being they cared for Marvin & i believe that is the difference.

From your own experience fights can fall through for a number of reasons & in the case of Hagler imo it was the case of he was known as a dangerous fighter who was avoided also early days not a big ticket sellar.You also have touched on ticket sales by fighters this is an overlooked facet of the game.Some fans wonder why certain fighters get opportunties quicker over in Britain for domestic titles it comes down to this.
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Old 02-07-2013, 02:45 AM   #229
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Dempsey read the article about John Duddy i heard he had a bad deal didn't realise the extent of it.I have friends in New York & he at least came out the other end & has got on with his life where it's easy to get bitter when you find out you have been treated so badly.

He has at least got into acting friend of mine over your side of the pond knows him he also helps run a bar both of which he enjoys.Next time i speak to him he may be able to tell me a bit more about what went on which i will post if it adds anything to the story.

My favourite fighter was Hagler he also had brothers looking after him & at times with better links his career could of been pushed on quicker imo.The difference being they cared for Marvin & i believe that is the difference.

From your own experience fights can fall through for a number of reasons & in the case of Hagler imo it was the case of he was known as a dangerous fighter who was avoided also early days not a big ticket sellar.You also have touched on ticket sales by fighters this is an overlooked facet of the game.Some fans wonder why certain fighters get opportunties quicker over in Britain for domestic titles it comes down to this.
M, good to hear, I saw Duddy when he was coming up and met some of the behind the scenes guys involved with his career. Ticket sales count and I don't mean the type you sell to family and friends.
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Old 02-07-2013, 03:09 AM   #230
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It really, really sucks what happened to Duddy. That's a big reason I wrote my book on MMA. To stop that kind of shit from happening, but people have no idea.
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:57 AM   #231
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It really, really sucks what happened to Duddy. That's a big reason I wrote my book on MMA. To stop that kind of shit from happening, but people have no idea.
I watch a lot of MMA as well as boxing to the really casual fan the UFC has such a monopoly on the top fighters a question to you about their fighters contracts.

Is my thinking correct in that the contracts are totally structured towards the organisation in that a fighter can have for example a 4 fight deal but should a loss occur that fighter can be released?

Dempsey with regards ticket sales over here there is a fighter i know that was asked how many tickets he could sell for a fight took too many tickets but they were not on a sell or return basis !Obviously that was the promoters side but a case also of being badly managed. Had to pay out from his own pocket & basically fought for free.

In your experience what was the best story you heard of a fighter that was overpaid?Top level being one thing but over here sometimes the journeymen can be better paid than the prospect just to save a show.
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:47 PM   #232
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Is my thinking correct in that the contracts are totally structured towards the organisation in that a fighter can have for example a 4 fight deal but should a loss occur that fighter can be released?
You are correct the contract is structured more to protect the promoter, Don King's attorney told me that he structured DKP's promotional to close all loopholes for the fighter.

I want to give you two examples of clauses that could appear in a promotional contract. Let's say the promoter offers you 4 fights a year, the contract is specific, 4 fights you say. At the end of the year you go and say to the promoter, "hey I only fought twice last year you owe me two fights."
The promoter tells you, "remember the fight we offered you in Sept, that you turned down cos you were getting married, and that other fight we offered you and you turned it down cos you felt you didn't have enough time to get ready? You fought two fights, and you turned down two fights that totals four fights, we gave you the opportunity to fight on four different shows.
The second clause is the the minimum purses for a fight, it might be specific as to rounds, ex. 4rds you get X, 6, 8, 10 and 12 you get X, it says specifically how much you will be paid for each fight. The promoter comes to you in the dressing room and says, "we are losing money on this show, and really cant afford your fight, if you take a 50% cut in your pay we will put you on. The fighter says whoa my minimum is this, why should I take a cut on my purse. The promoter will say, yes your minimum is this and you signed the bout agreement with that amount, but if you look at your contract you will see this line"unless otherwise agreed to". So the fighter is given a choice fight at a reduced purse or dont fight, and this fight counts as one of the fights we have to offer you.



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Dempsey with regards ticket sales over here there is a fighter i know that was asked how many tickets he could sell for a fight took too many tickets but they were not on a sell or return basis !Obviously that was the promoters side but a case also of being badly managed. Had to pay out from his own pocket & basically fought for free.
Over here on an upcoming local show, the fighter has to sell enough tickets to cover his opponents purse. I dont want to sign big headed, but not my guys, if my guys sell tickets it's because they can, and it means an extra amount added to his purse. My guys get 20%, of ticket sales, otherwise fergitboutit.

I feel for those guys that have to pay for their own fights, cos it really is a pain collecting the money and tracking people down.

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In your experience what was the best story you heard of a fighter that was overpaid?
Believe me no fighter ever thinks they are overpaid, they all believe they are getting slave wages, and getting screwed by the evil promoters.

Fighters have to know what they are worth and how much is on the table, and to realize that they have to be reasonable in their dealings. Thats why I try to build a fanbase for my guys, so that I have leverage when it comes to negotiating.

Quote:
Top level being one thing but over here sometimes the journeymen can be better paid than the prospect just to save a show.
[/quote]

I have dealt with a few UK promoters and yes you are right, the opponent or the "B" side is paid more cos the promoter is bringing in the right opponent or bringing in a fighter from the US, to face a local killer. To face even a used up veteran from the US means more for for the UK promoter cos then he can get more play cos the local is facing an American fighter, the average fan, doesn't know it's a set-up, all they know is that the local hero is fighting a "tough" American.
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:51 PM   #233
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It really, really sucks what happened to Duddy. That's a big reason I wrote my book on MMA. To stop that kind of shit from happening, but people have no idea.
The fighters are always the last to know, cos all they want is to be able to show their stuff, and are usually the just happy to be at the dance. Managers like me, are not liked by local promoters cos they want to control the fighters and a stinkin' manager tends to complicate things.
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Old 02-08-2013, 04:42 AM   #234
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This is very interesting dempsey and opening my eyes up alot to the way boxers are treated.

It's a shame how nasty it is...when your young with talent and just want to box you dont really want to be thinking about lawyers and that these people are going to try and shaft me.

Keep up the good work! I can see why these dodgy promoters dont like you! I do though!
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Old 02-08-2013, 08:44 AM   #235
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So what your saying is a guy like wilder if he gets a 1 million dollar fight will probably gross less than 100,000 because the promoters will want the money they invested back!
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:54 PM   #236
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So what your saying is a guy like wilder if he gets a 1 million dollar fight will probably gross less than 100,000 because the promoters will want the money they invested back!
No thats not what I am saying, let's say the promoter has a budget of a million dollars for Wilder to fight somebody on HBO. This means the promoter has to put together a fight and pay both sides out of the million. Let's say they pay Wilder $250,000, and the opponent is on board for $100,000, for a total of $350,000. Both purses are more than fair, so nobody is being robbed. A good manager might have squeezed the promoter a little more, to up the purse but not much more.
The promoter, then has made $650,000, but wait they have to put on a show and pay for the undercard, and everything else that goes to putting on a show, it comes out of the promoters end. Thats why you see crap undercards. This is how the promoter gets his, he is able to get a fee for letting Wilder fight on HBO, and if Wilder looks good then they are able to fight him again on HBO or PPV, where both can get paid. Promoters are really investors, putting up the money to advance the career of the fighter and increase their chances of making their money back.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:08 PM   #237
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This is very interesting dempsey and opening my eyes up alot to the way boxers are treated.

It's a shame how nasty it is...when your young with talent and just want to box you dont really want to be thinking about lawyers and that these people are going to try and shaft me.

Keep up the good work! I can see why these dodgy promoters dont like you! I do though!
The fighter can protect themselves, by doing a little research, learn to read a contract, know that you have rights that are protected by law seek advice from people who are in the business, boxing guys will give you their opinions about somebody get a feel for them. Sometimes a fighter is his own worst enemy, "Just cos he smiles doesn't mean he's your friend", fighters seem to listen best to fools, who tell them, that they should fighting this guy and getting paid this much, that everybody is looking to screw them, protect yourself do your homework cos it's your butt on the line.
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:34 PM   #238
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Without a decent t.v deal promoters look to at least get a local fighter with a following over here Dempsey you may see a fighter with certain colours on their shorts & often a badge.Generally it will be a football club affiliation!

We had obviously the Hatton angle which over here crossed over football to boxing it sold.

The problem in my opinion over here is that we have promoters linked to certain managers & no cross promotion.Eddie Hearn has a sky deal Mr W has boxnation & Mick Hennessey has terrestrial tv deal over here with channel 5.The talent pool is not deep enough imo without promoters & managers working together. Do you have the same problem in the USA obviously discounting HBO/Showtime?

Great thread anyway.Over here imo the manager that cut the best signing ever was Frank Maloney with Lennox Lewis he saw a opening for a heavyweight with potential.No disrespect to Canadaians but he was always going to make more money over here.
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Old 02-08-2013, 06:19 PM   #239
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Hey Dempsey. How do you feel about Al Haymon? Theres been a lot of talk about how he gets great paydays for his fighters.
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:36 PM   #240
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Hey Dempsey. How do you feel about Al Haymon? Theres been a lot of talk about how he gets great paydays for his fighters.
Al Haymon is good for his fighters but in a way bad for boxing. Haymon has leverage which he uses to get his way as any manager should. The thing is that Haymon is too good, if thats possible. Andre Berto, earns millions when he fights, the question is does he deserve that money? He draws nothing at the gate and fights a bunch of soft opponents until Ortiz and then Guerrero banged him around. Haymon is doing his job getting his guy the best deal so you cant blame him, for what he can squeeze out of the promoter. It hurts boxing in different ways, Haymon has set a high bar $ wise, everybody else will think they deserve as much or more, the outlets(HBO, SHOWTIME, PPV) have a budget, for the year and for a fight, when you overpay on one end, you pay for it on the other end, so next time you see crappy undercard fights, this is one of the reasons why, the networks have an annual budget so if someone is overpaid that is taking a big chunk out of that budget, which in turn means less fights and lower qualty fights. Haymon's musical endevours gives him the power and the leverage with HBO and SHOWTIME.
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
or google:Behind the Scenes, Haymon Is Shaking Up the Fight Game
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